Pronunciation watch

[Pabmusic]

Ian Botham.

The BBC has always pronounced his name "Boatham", but the normal pronunciation in the East Midlands has a short "o" and a soft "th". Furthermore, his fellow players called him "Both" (rhyming with "goth".

It is, after all an Old English name meaning 'valley', which also appears regularly in place-names as 'bottom'. Pratt's Bottom, Bullyhole Bottom and the like. Often, pronunciations such as the BBC version will have arisen out of prudishness or embarrassment - as with De'Ath.

[Rue Dubac]

There was a rumour that in India he was known as Iron Bottom. A certain aptness?

[gurnemanz]

It is, after all an Old English name meaning 'valley', which also appears regularly in place-names as 'bottom'. Pratt's Bottom, Bullyhole Bottom and the like. Often, pronunciations such as the BBC version will have arisen out of prudishness or embarrassment - as with De'Ath.

Bottom is a cognate of German Boden (floor, ground). Other om/en cognates of interest: Eng bosom - German Busen, Eng besom - German Besen, seldom/selten (Faden/fathom - bit obscure).

[Serial_Apologist]

(What do italians say when they talk about Shakespeare's play?)

Mostly when Italians meet me, they say "Hello old fellow".

[Richard Tarleton]

posted by me :Just a note on the TV presentation: I don't think Katie can have consulted the BBC's own pronunciation unit's searchable online database on how to pronounce Lutosławski.

posted by Marvin: Here we go again. There's always one pedant to find fault. I know in the past I have been very critical of Ms Dereham with her over egged attempts of foreign pronunciation and I suppose she could have said 'Lutoswaffski' or something like that but hell, does it matter. It's music for the masses.

I thought I'd move my and Marvin's contributions here, rather than trespass further on the First Night thread. Apart of course from pleading guilty as charged I would merely point out that the BBC has a Pronunciation Unit with a searchable online database precisely so that broadcasters like Ms Dereham can get it right. The BBC (or parts of it) still think it's important.

It's the bloke's name, for goodness sakes. It's what R3 presenters are there for, getting foreign names right. The Beeb provides them with the resources to do so. It isn't me. It's part of the job.

Polish is tricky. I had a Polish housemate at university called Waclaw (first name). He generally preferred to be called "Wac", as most people found ""Vatswaf" too difficult. But that was most people, not R3 presenters.

[jean]

I think we ought to try to get it right.

The problem with Polish is that it's written in the Roman alphabet so the pronunciation seems obvious to us and we don't necessarily think we need to ask advice - but there's that ł (and a few diacritics) that most fonts in use in this country don't do.

I had a Russian colleague when I lived in Poland who used a different transliteration for English from the one she used when writing Polish.

[Richard Tarleton]

I think we ought to try to get it right.

we don't necessarily think we need to ask advice

This - as I think I'm finding out - may be the problem with the Pronunciation Unit - it appears to be reactive rather than proactive, so if broadcasters don't ask.....

[french frank]

The problem with Polish is that it's written in the Roman alphabet so the pronunciation seems obvious to us and we don't necessarily think we need to ask advice

There is a school of thought that presenters who will obviously have to be pronouncing 'foreign' names and titles with some frequency should be given some basisc training on 'foreign' language pronunciation. It isn't a popular view, apparently.

[amateur51]

This - as I think I'm finding out - may be the problem with the Pronunciation Unit - it appears to be reactive rather than proactive, so if broadcasters don't ask.....

Surely a programme producer, Katie Derham's for example, should review her script for a programme looking for pronunciation pitfalls. S/he should raise these with Katie and together they should go to the Pronunciation Unit link for that name, where there is an audio clip demonstrating how the pitfall name is to be pronounced. Once producer & Katie get to know & trust each other, this process can be cut short by highlighting the pitfall words and referring Katie to the website again.

Surely this should not be beyond the wit of two apparently professional people?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I mentioned on another thread how many different ways Katie D. pronounced "Lorin Maazel" in a recent TV transmission.

[french frank]

they should go to the Pronunciation Unit link for that name, where there is an audio clip demonstrating how the pitfall name is to be pronounced

Is that how they do it now? Last time I saw a presenter's notes, it was just written down phonetically, as it might be: Loo-toh-SWAHFS-kee

[amateur51]

Is that how they do it now? Last time I saw a presenter's notes, it was just written down phonetically, as it might be: Loo-toh-SWAHFS-kee

Better still, ff - so the answer is that a certain person is a slow study?

[Angle]

The A in Lutoslawski is short - as in 'man'. Heaven preserve us from 'arski'. The same is true in 'Iraq, Iran and Bavaria - Dan Cruickshank notwithstanding.

[french frank]

The A in Lutoslawski is short - as in 'man'. Heaven preserve us from 'arski'. The same is true in 'Iraq, Iran and Bavaria - Dan Cruickshank notwithstanding.

My first version was SWOFS-KEE but I thought if people pronounced that as in English it wouldn't be quite right. It didn't occur to me that SWAHFS-KEE would be interpreted as long as in 'arski' but as an intermediate sound. Looking up explanations for the 'a' I found:
- a low central vowel for which there is no symbol in the IPA http://www.omniglot.com/writing/polish.htm
- always like "u" in "mum" http://www.staypoland.com/polish-pronunciation.htm
-as in English smart http://mowicpopolsku.com/polish-alphabet-pronunciation/

I can only explain it as if you take 'arski' and try to pronounce it as a short vowel...

[Dave2002]

Is that how they do it now? Last time I saw a presenter's notes, it was just written down phonetically, as it might be: Loo-toh-SWAHFS-kee

Isn't the initial "L" also actually pronounced more like a "W"? Your representation has one of the "L"s, not both.

At least it's just about possible to represent Polish sounds phonetically. My understanding of Dutch, which isn't much, is that even well known names such as "van Gogh" require throat clearing and throwing up practice in order to get an approximation of what native speakers expect.