Pronunciation watch

[Pabmusic]

...If it was the case that she said "an 'otel" just as the highly educated said "an 'otel", it might just be that the roots of it were in an absence of political and industrial congregation where big changes had occurred.

You may be reading too much into it. There are (were?) no doubt other forces at work. Dropping aitches was a feature of Cockney, Estuary English and other 'London' speech, but I have no strong knowledge of the history, and it may well provide a different path to the same phenomenon. I have certainly worked with an Essex girl who dropped almost every aitch that was going, yet put aitches on words that didn't need them. ("'Ow's 'e hevver gonna do it?")

There are writers going back to Roman times who argued that H should not be in the alphabet at all. It's the only letter that doesn't engage either the vocal cords, throat, tongue, teeth or lips, and (arguably at least) all it does is add a breathy sound to the letter next door. It's therefore rather like an accent, colouring a different letter. Greek doesn't have an aitch - it has an accent, rather like an apostrophe, that says "pronounce this with a breathy sound". Maybe this lack of a clear, independent sound has made it more easy to drop aitches.

[Lateralthinking1]

You may be reading too much into it. There are (were?) no doubt other forces at work. Dropping aitches was a feature of Cockney, Estuary English and other 'London' speech, but I have no strong knowledge of the history, and it may well provide a different path to the same phenomenon. I have certainly worked with an Essex girl who dropped almost every aitch that was going, yet put aitches on words that didn't need them. ("'Ow's 'e hevver gonna do it?")

There are writers going back to Roman times who argued that H should not be in the alphabet at all. It's the only letter that doesn't engage either the vocal cords, throat, tongue, teeth or lips, and (arguably at least) all it does is add a breathy sound to the letter next door. It's therefore rather like an accent, colouring a different letter. Greek doesn't have an aitch - it has an accent, rather like an apostrophe, that says "pronounce this with a breathy sound". Maybe this lack of a clear, independent sound has made it more easy to drop aitches.

I've been reading! In 1791, John Walker, a friend of Samuel Johnson, selected four areas of Cockney for criticism. One was that 'h' was not spoken where it should be and added where it need not be. He was referring to the start of words but he also lamented the non-pronunciation of 'h' in words like 'while'!!! His comments came at the end of a century when according to one writer "the animus against Cockney, the speech of vulgar Londoners, increased because the orthoepists were using the opprobrious tag "London vulgarism" to extirpate variant pronunciations which continued to be used by some members of the middle class".

Historical accuracy and intelligence were not necessarily the absolute deciding factors on pronunciation. Personal manner and behaviour were considered highly relevant. Solomon Lowe declared in 1770 "I have founded my rules on what I conceive to be the most common way of pronouncing them [words] among the better sort of people in London". The "better sort of people" were not merely Men of Letters but "polite speakers". The point about vulgarity is interesting because Elizabethan writers, themselves learned, had created burlesques in which ordinary London people were satirised for vulgarity of mind as well as speech. Both were convenient distractions from the "vulgarity" of the environments they were required to inhabit by a "better sort of people"!!

Parish documents in the 1600s had shown variants in pronunciation in Londoners. No doubt they were often accompanied by some bawdiness although people of other classes were hardly the epitome of saintliness. The variants were not exclusive. They were not uncommon in "good speakers" but among Londoners they were more common. That remained the position for at least 150 years. It only changed because of the insistence of the orthoepists that some pronunciations were "vulgar". Perhaps modern pronunciation might have been more consistently based on historical principles if there hadn't been an ignorant, illogical prejudice in those times?

I have to say that every inner south Londoner in my 50 years of personal experience hasn't added 'h' where there shouldn't be an "h". The "h" is dropped with no hyper-correction. Admittedly family were not Cockney but only by virtue of a mile. I do associate the added "h" with some Estuary speech - Essex and Kent - which I hear as very distinct, almost to the point of alien, even though to many outside London it is very similar. It is also in some London Irish to the north and, of course, the self-consciously mobile. Where you do find it in Cockneys is caricature on the stage. The ultimate intelligent conclusion must be that very little changes.

[amateur51]

So ... Huhne ... is it Hoon or Hyoon or Hoon-er?

[amateur51]

After listening to several interviews with Mexican actor Gael Garcia Bernal about the film No, about the 1988 Chilean referendum, I am perplexed - is the dictator Pinochet's name to be pronounced Peeno-shette (GGB) or Peeno-shay (every Brit interviewer)?

[french frank]

After listening to several interviews with Mexican actor Gael Garcia Bernal about the film No, about the 1988 Chilean referendum, I am perplexed - is the dictator Pinochet's name to be pronounced Peeno-shette (GGB) or Peeno-shay (every Brit interviewer)?

The Spanish pronunciation is Peenochett, but the name does appear to have a French origin - which is usually the pronunciation followed in the UK.

OTOH, we alter Le Mesurier, Villiers &c ...

[arancie33]

The Spanish pronunciation is Peenochett, but the name does appear to have a French origin - which is usually the pronunciation followed in the UK...

On our regular visits to Italy we drink the odd glass of wine and are now accustomed to sounding the finat "t" in "cabernet" and "merlot". We then return home, forget where we are, and continue to do so and, consequently, are probably regarded as higgorant peasants. Don't care

On a slight tack, I thought I heard Trelawney pronounce Don Carlos with a silent "s" a few weeks ago. Anyone care to pronounce on that? For my money he keeps his "s", as Verdi would have pronounced it.

[jean]

Do we know how Verdi would have pronounced the French version?

[arancie33]

Do we know how Verdi would have pronounced the French version?

Good point. Well, if not Verdi personally, then his audiences.

[french frank]

Well, the Italian version is Don Carlo anyway, surely, and the most often produced? I ought to know how the name Carlos would be pronounced in French but without any justification I would pronounce the 's' - if it were there.

If we were talking in general about the opera (not a particular version) - what would we call it?

[jean]

We'd call it Don Carlos because we're English.

We say Don Quixote and we know that's correct because it comes from the English word quixotic.

(On second thoughts, I think Italians do call it Don Carlo.)

[Pabmusic]

...In 1791, John Walker, a friend of Samuel Johnson, selected four areas of Cockney for criticism. One was that 'h' was not spoken where it should be and added where it need not be. He was referring to the start of words but he also lamented the non-pronunciation of 'h' in words like 'while'!!!...

I've just taken this passage in (bit slow ). Our wh- words are all Anglo-Saxon and used to be spelt hwat, hwic, hwan, etc. (what, which, when). Many dialects (especially in Scotland) still pronounce the h before the w, and I was encouraged to do the same at school. I tend to pronounce the h when I do any public or formal speaking (haven't done much for a few years, but I used to do a lot). It comes quite naturally.

[Richard Tarleton]

We'd call it Don Carlos because we're English.

We say Don Quixote and we know that's correct because it comes from the English word quixotic.

(On second thoughts, I think Italians do call it Don Carlo.)

It's Don Carlos in the French libretto. In the Italian, it's Don Carlo, no "s", regardless of our nationality.

Verdi scholar Charles Osborne discusses the matter in his "The Complete Operas of Verdi", and sums it up pretty well for me:

[Italian] was, after all, Verdi's own language, and the only one he spoke fluently. His knowledge of French, though extensive, was imperfect, and I do not think that he set it particularly well. I certainly cannot agree with the view that the French of Don Carlos lies more easily and naturally on the vocal line than the Italian of Don Carlo. As with the adaptation of Les Vêpres siciliennes to I Vespri Siciliani, Verdi made what alterations were necessary to fit the music to the Italian text. (And it should be remembered that, when he came to compose Aida, Verdi refused to set a French libretto by Camille du Locle [of the Don Carlos libretto], and himself worked closely on an Italian libretto with Antonio Ghislanzoni who translated du Locle's French). Allthings considered, Verdi's Don Carlo is to be preferred to his Don Carlos.

The incomparable Giulini recording on EMI naturally said "Don Carlo" on the box. Inexplicably, when EMI released the CD version, they called it "Don Carlos". Whatever, Andrew Porter concluded in his sleeve notes, "But the great opera is surely Don Carlo of 1886, uncut, as on these records".

When it comes down to it, pace Francophones, the French version just sounds awful alongside the Italian. Here is one of the high points, sung by the great Shirley Verrett (who is on the Giulini recording).

[french frank]

Don Carlos could in some circs be an anglicisation of Don Carlo, rather than the French title. Though do we ever talk about Verdi's Othello?

[Richard Tarleton]

Don Carlos could in some circs be an anglicisation of Don Carlo, rather than the French title. Though do we ever talk about Verdi's Othello?

Good question. Have ENO ever done it, and if so....?

[Bert Coules]

Good question. Have ENO ever done it, and if so....?

They have, and with the Italian title. The characters too were firmly called Otello, Des-day-mona and so on. Illogical really, at least for the former: the Moor of Venice could perfectly easily have been given the familiar English version of his moniker. And I did once see a vocal score which painstakingly altered the note values to render his poor wife's name with the Shakespearian rather than the Boiton stress, though I suspect that would have been regarded as a step too far by the good folk in St Martin's Lane.

Actually, ENO (and to be fair other companies too) have always tended to be inconsistent in this regard, especially with titles. They've happily done The Twilight of the Gods in the same season as La Traviata and The Marriage of Figaro alongside Cosi fan Tutte.

Bert