Pronunciation watch

[Pabmusic]

I think your choice of word - "acceptable" - was perhaps unfortunate.

Yes it was - I meant, of course, "not a particular cause for accusations of affectation, or the subject of parody". My only excuse is that it was late here, but it's now early morning and I'm bright as ever!

[Pabmusic]

Febyuary.

Have you noticed that many Americans pronounce 'mirror' as 'meeyuh' or even 'mere'? (Mrs Pab is best, as she gives full value to both syllables - I have to say this as she is standing next to me.)

[gurnemanz]

Interesting how common Laura Norder has become, ("Who is this Laura Norder?" my Canadian friend asks me) - to which thoring has now been added frequently of late: "the snow is expected to be thoring tomorrow". Like the "n" added for ease of passage mentioned above, it seems to apply more in Home Counties speak than elsewhere from what I hear. "I don't say Laura Norder", someone tells me; "But I bet you'd say Angelar Evans", I reply!

(We were certainly taken to task by our teachers in the '50s for saying "droring" - that was quickly elocuted out of me!

The intrusive "r" in "law and order", and "I saw a film" is so prevalent because it is easier and more natural to pronounce it that way in a language like English in which multiple words are systematically linked and blended together. (Elocutionists as above will always have problems because they are fighting against what comes naturally). Similar vowel sound to vowel sound linking occurs in "he asked" where most native speakers naturally insert an intrusive "y" but where Germans, for instance, will naturally tend to keep the words separate. I spent a few years teaching English in Germany. This linking does not come naturally to them and they need to be encouraged to do it if they want to sound authentic. One way to spot German speakers of English is that they naturally pronounce these combinations as separately demarcated words. "Go away" actually usually has two "w" sounds. Consonant to vowel linking as in "loo k_out", "drea m_on" is also standard in idiomatic English. A good example of vowel to vowel and vowel to consonant linking in the same phrase is: Victoria r an Dalbert.

[Pabmusic]

The intrusive "r" in "law and order", and "I saw a film" is so prevalent because it is easier and more natural to pronounce it that way in a language like English in which multiple words are systematically linked and blended together. (Elocutionists as above will always have problems because they are fighting against what comes naturally). Similar vowel sound to vowel sound linking occurs in "he asked" where most native speakers naturally insert an intrusive "y" but where Germans, for instance, will naturally tend to keep the words separate. I spent a few years teaching English in Germany. This linking does not come naturally to them and they need to be encouraged to do it if they want to sound authentic. One way to spot German speakers of English is that they naturally pronounce these combinations as separately demarcated words. "Go away" actually usually has two "w" sounds. Consonant to vowel linking as in "loo k_out", "drea m_on" is also standard in idiomatic English. A good example of vowel to vowel and vowel to consonant linking in the same phrase is: Victoria r an Dalbert.

Excellent post.

[mangerton]

At church this morning, I was delighted to sing in Psalm 33, "He gathereth the waters of the sea together, as it were upon an heap".

[vinteuil]

At church this morning, I was delighted to sing in Psalm 33, "He gathereth the waters of the sea together, as it were upon an heap".

... yes, lovely!

And of course our old friend Genesis 2. 18 -

"And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him."

... and for those who remember Alan Bennett's Sermon - "But my brother Esau is an hairy man... "

https://www.brezhnev.net/take-a-pew

[french frank]

At church this morning, I was delighted to sing in Psalm 33, "He gathereth the waters of the sea together, as it were upon an heap".

Very seasonal!

As for Laura Norder, there is a similar characteristic in French. When the realist painter Courbet was chided for abandoning traditional mythical subjects, his reply was : «Si vous voulez que je peigne des déesses, montrez-moi-z-en »

A common colloquial phrase where the z avoids the hiatus between two vowel sounds.

[vinteuil]

A common colloquial phrase where the z avoids the hiatus between two vowel sounds.

... and leading to such glories as "zyeuter" - to look, from yeux preceded by the z liaison. Queneau revels in such.

I remember as a teenager on an exchange holiday being remonstrated for saying "les z Halles" for what shd be pronounced "lay ' all" :mortified emoticon:

[Serial_Apologist]

Lawn order - hmmm, yes that does mean something else.

[french frank]

... and leading to such glories as "zyeuter" - to look, from yeux preceded by the z liaison. Queneau revels in such.

I remember as a teenager on an exchange holiday being remonstrated for saying "les z Halles" for what shd be pronounced "lay ' all" :mortified emoticon:

I haven't come across zyeuter, but les Halles, yes. The other aspirate we were warned about was 'les héros' = les zéros.

[mangerton]

Very seasonal!

As for Laura Norder, there is a similar characteristic in French. When the realist painter Courbet was chided for abandoning traditional mythical subjects, his reply was : «Si vous voulez que je peigne des déesses, montrez-moi-z-en »

A common colloquial phrase where the z avoids the hiatus between two vowel sounds.

cf: y a-t-il?

I wonder what/who decided whether it should be "t" or "z".

[gurnemanz]

cf: y a-t-il?

I wonder what/who decided whether it should be "t" or "z".

The term "excrescent t" came into my head, but wiki explains it under something called epenthesis as a "synchronic rule". Apparently it is a relic of the Latin third person inflection "habet".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epenthesis#As_a_synchronic_rule

[mangerton]

The term "excrescent t" came into my head, but wiki explains it under something called epenthesis as a "synchronic rule". Apparently it is a relic of the Latin third person inflection "habet".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epenthe...ynchronic_rule

Thank you. A very interesting link.

[french frank]

The term "excrescent t" came into my head, but wiki explains it under something called epenthesis as a "synchronic rule". Apparently it is a relic of the Latin third person inflection "habet".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epenthe...ynchronic_rule

I did not know that. I will learn more.

[Pabmusic]

At church this morning, I was delighted to sing in Psalm 33, "He gathereth the waters of the sea together, as it were upon an heap".

... yes, lovely!

And of course our old friend Genesis 2. 18 -

"And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him."

... and for those who remember Alan Bennett's Sermon - "But my brother Esau is an hairy man... "

www.brezhnev.net/take-a-pew

Lovely! Presumably it's the (very conservative) language of the 1611 version.

The thing though is that "an heap" or "an help" would more likely have been pronounced "an eap" or "an elp" in 1611 - hence the "an", which reflects an older pronunciation of the noun rather than an unusual use of "an". Alan Bennett's (very good) joke is more than likely based on a misunderstanding.

I live surrounded by people who pronounce herb as erb (not a word they use all the time, but you get my meaning...). It sounds really odd - sloppy even. But their pronunciation, got from Americans, is the older one by far (French herbe - 'erb'). There used to be dozens of words with a silent H at the front, but the list has slowly been whittled down as we began to pronounce many of the aitches. That process isn't over yet, leaving room for misunderstandings in the use of "an" (an (h)otel; a hotel; an hotel).

Of course, Vint's example gave rise to a greater misunderstanding still. The language of the King James Bible was, as I said conservative, and not everyone understood the rather old-fashioned "an help meet for him" (a helper suitable for him). So as early as the turn of the 18th Century, we find the word "helpmeet" or "helpmate" appearing in print.