Pronunciation watch

[Lateralthinking1]

Form John Humphrys' "Lost for Words":-

'I shall probably not go as far as the little boy who, it is said, disliked a book about Australia that his mother was fond of reading to him at bedtime and finally demanded, "What have you brought that book I don't like being read to out of about Down Under up for?"'

Yes, I know; I've quoted it before, but it's a classic.

Yes, ungainly - and difficult to comprehend the meaning. I had to read it three times.

I would say 'boldly to go' to emphasise 'boldly' but would prefer not to say it at all.

I can't resist putting forward arguments for clarity, which is possibly a grammatical rule, and elegance which might not be. I could imagine using 'slow' rather than 'slowly' in a poem for artistic effect. 'Of' at the end of a sentence isn't pretty.

Differences of opinion in recent posts might be linked to different perceptions of the word 'student'. Advanced students are rare and will be excited to hear about counter-intuitive nuances. Young people, foreign students and even the BBC need to concentrate on the basics. Widespread standard use should be followed by them all as the principal objective is general communication.

There have been no comments about the writers on You Tube. It might be that there is a reluctance to be critical of basic error. I wouldn't condemn what is written there - quite the opposite - but it shows the scope for improvement in areas beyond nuance. And what appears wrong in a few who are mainly wrong, but by good luck is technically correct, won't alter received wisdom.

I haven't seen 'alumium' but I have seen the American 'aluminum'. I would write 'John Humphrys's'.

[Lateralthinking1]

Would someone be able to help me on the following pronunciations please? -

Aho, Alfven, Auric, Cilea, Dohnanyi, Rzewski, Szymanowski, Wiren, Ysaye

[french frank]

Would someone be able to help me on the following pronunciations please? -

Aho, Alfven, Auric, Cilea, Dohnanyi, Rzewski, Szymanowski, Wiren, Ysaye

Okay .. where is everyone?

[french frank]

Would someone be able to help me on the following pronunciations please? -

Aho, Alfven, Auric, Cilea, Dohnanyi, Rzewski, Szymanowski, Wiren, Ysaye

My offering E&OE

Actually, there are several interesting guidelines, the first being the necessity to know the nationality of the person: Rzewski is an American, but Rzewski clearly isn't. People frequently adopt differing pronunciations. I think zheffski is sanctioned in the case of Frederic, but Rz in Polish is like ř in Czech Dvořák. It has the ghost of an r sound in front of the zh sound. Finnish like Hungarian stresses the first syllable - so AH-ho. Sz in Polish is a sh sound, so Shimmanofski (but in Hungarian sz is ss). Auric is Oh-REEK, very light stress on final. Cilea was Italian, so(?) Chee-LAY-a(?). Ysaÿe is Ee-zie-EE (second syllable like English die/lie. Dohnányi is DOCH-na-nyee (the accent is not a stress accent). Pass on the niceties of the two Swedish ones.

[Lateralthinking1]

My offering E&OE

Actually, there are several interesting guidelines, the first being the necessity to know the nationality of the person: Rzewski is an American, but Rzewski clearly isn't. People frequently adopt differing pronunciations. I think zheffski is sanctioned in the case of Frederic, but Rz in Polish is like ř in Czech Dvořák. It has the ghost of an r sound in front of the zh sound. Finnish like Hungarian stresses the first syllable - so AH-ho. Sz in Polish is a sh sound, so Shimmanofski (but in Hungarian sz is ss). Auric is Oh-REEK, very light stress on final. Cilea was Italian, so(?) Chee-LAY-a(?). Ysaÿe is Ee-zie-EE (second syllable like English die/lie. Dohnányi is DOCH-na-nyee (the accent is not a stress accent). Pass on the niceties of the two Swedish ones.

Thank you. I scored 1 out of 7.

I understood all of your explanations very clearly apart from Rzewski. Is it like a 'g' as in 'gendarmerie' or would the American form be more like a breathy 'z' - 'ze' rolled into 'hefski' - or even an ordinary 'z' as if the 'h' was missing?

One of my favourite composers is 'Kodaly' and I pronounce him 'Ko-dye'. Is this correct? And should the 'D' in 'Dvorak' be pronounced please? I don't pronounce it. Another question concerns Rosvalets. I have 'Ros-va-lettes'. And - one for ahinton - Sorabji?

I would still welcome comments on 'Alfven' and 'Wiren'.

(I will have to write these on a piece of paper to remember them!)

[JFLL]

Okay .. where is everyone?

Gone to ask Katie Derham?

[french frank]

Thank you. I scored 1 out of 7.

I understood all of your explanations very clearly apart from Rzewski. Is it like a 'g' as in 'gendarmerie' or would the American form be more like a breathy 'z' - 'ze' rolled into 'hefski' - or even an ordinary 'z' as if the 'h' was missing?

One of my favourite composers is 'Kodaly' and I pronounce him 'Ko-dye'. Is this correct? And should the 'D' be in 'Dvorak' be pronounced please? Another question concerns Rosvalets. I have Ros-va-lettes"

I would still welcome comments on 'Alfven' and 'Wiren'.

Yes, zh is much like in French gendarme. Or the consonant sound in the middle of leisure. Tricky to know exactly how Rzewski wants it pronounced. If it were straightforwardly Polish it would start with the r sound you make in UR, if you can isolate the last element from the vowel. But that's getting a bit nice. KO-dye, yes, pretty much. Initial syllable stressed, no l sound. Hungarian ly reduces to the y sound. Yes, an initial D in Dvořák, but quite lightly, make it 'blend' with the following v. I don't know Russian so won't pronounce (heh!) on Roslavets [sic].

[Lateralthinking1]

Yes, zh is much like in French gendarme. Or the consonant sound in the middle of leisure. Tricky to know exactly how Rzewski wants it pronounced. If it were straightforwardly Polish it would start with the r sound you make in UR, if you can isolate the last element from the vowel. But that's getting a bit nice. KO-dye, yes, pretty much. Initial syllable stressed, no l sound. Hungarian ly reduces to the y sound. Yes, an initial D in Dvořák, but quite lightly, make it 'blend' with the following v. I don't know Russian so won't pronounce (heh!) on Roslavets [sic].

Yes thank you. I was getting confused about the spelling of Roslavets. Sorry. I would probably have the emphasis on the middle syllable in that case but I am guessing. On the others, I am about right. As a matter of interest, is Polish an easy or difficult language to learn - and what about Bulgarian? What are the major stumbling blocks with each? The latter will be in demand soon.

[jean]

...As a matter of interest, is Polish an easy or difficult language to learn...?

I found it very difficult, to the extent that I hardly learned any at all in nearly three years.

It wasn't the grammar, which is very recognisably standard Indo-European, and it wasn't the pronunciation, which despite looking so fearsome is absolutely regular.

No, for me it was the vocabulary, which I just couldn't remember. I was probably too old when I started.

[french frank]

Yes thank you. I was getting confused about the spelling of Roslavets. Sorry. I would probably have the emphasis on the middle syllable in that case but I am guessing. On the others, I am about right. As a matter of interest, is Polish an easy or difficult language to learn - and what about Bulgarian? What are the major stumbling blocks with each? The latter will be in demand soon.

I would be with jean on this. Despite looking fearsome, the language is quite phonetic, though there are a few sounds and sound clusters that are harder to get your tongue round. I only learned some travel basics but a friend of mine went to classes for a couple of years. I seem to think there was something grammatically fearsome which I didn't get to - possibly tenses/moods? - which were distinctly unEnglish . I have my Teach Yourself CDs - maybe I'll have a listen tonight ... Bulgarian is also Slavic, but I know no more. Romanian is, of course, a Romance language but it never seemed immediately approachable to me.

[Lateralthinking1]

I found it very difficult, to the extent that I hardly learned any at all in nearly three years.

It wasn't the grammar, which is very recognisably standard Indo-European, and it wasn't the pronunciation, which despite looking so fearsome is absolutely regular.

No, for me it was the vocabulary, which I just couldn't remember. I was probably too old when I started.

I would be with jean on this. Despite looking fearsome, the language is quite phonetic, though there are a few sounds and sound clusters that are harder to get your tongue round. I only learned some travel basics but a friend of mine went to classes for a couple of years. I seem to think there was something grammatically fearsome which I didn't get to - possibly tenses/moods? - which were distinctly unEnglish . I have my Teach Yourself CDs - maybe I'll have a listen tonight ... Bulgarian is also Slavic, but I know no more. Romanian is, of course, a Romance language but it never seemed immediately approachable to me.

Thanks to both of you. If you found it difficult, I doubt that I will find it possible. Bulgarian also looks frightening. I am always grateful for any translations provided by Le Mystere des Voix Bulgares.

While we can find a lot of 'Z' off-putting, I find it is repetition that is the problem. I have never been keen to learn Italian because of the 'I'. I learn more easily when words and themes are distinct. At one point, I considered learning Welsh but the one that I feel is 'me' is Spanish. From holiday experiences, I think it would come naturally but whether there is any point now I don't know.

[french frank]

Welsh has its difficulties, because of the initial grammatical sound changes (lenition). Spanish is a doddle, grammatically, to learn but the sounds are quite awkward to master. One of many languages where native speakers make the individual words blend into each other and they all sound like one extremely long word.

[Lateralthinking1]

Welsh has its difficulties, because of the initial grammatical sound changes (lenition). Spanish is a doddle, grammatically, to learn but the sounds are quite awkward to master. One of many languages where native speakers make the individual words blend into each other and they all sound like one extremely long word.

The sound came naturally too as if it was in my memory somehow but there was also the worry that it was a bit Manuel.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

... checking in my old OED I see that "sioot" is the only pronunciation they recognize.

Clearly it's all these "lazy, sloppy" speakers who have 'simplified' the modern pronunciation to "sooot"

[vinteuil]

Spanish is a doddle, grammatically, to learn but the sounds are quite awkward to master. One of many languages where native speakers make the individual words blend into each other and they all sound like one extremely long word.

... and Portuguese is still more difficult in that 'blending together' of words. To my ears they seem to 'swallow' the last couple of syllables of most words - even those with fewer than three syllables....