Pronunciation watch

[oddoneout]

It’s a Latin word so no one can say with much authority how it should be pronounced . For what it’s worth There is a school of thought that the c’s in Latin should be sounded like K’s as in Kikero rather than Sisero for Cicero.

Just out of interest I looked up the French version -cigales - and came across this

Borrowed from Old Occitan cigala, from Vulgar Latin *cicāla, from Latin cicāda.

which if I've understood the symbols correctly also suggests stress on the second syllable of the Latin from which it's derived.

[french frank]

Just out of interest I looked up the French version -cigales - and came across this which if I've understood the symbols correctly also suggests stress on the second syllable of the Latin from which it's derived.

Yes, if it had been cīgala, that would have given *cigle.

[gurnemanz]

The Germans (Alemanni?) took over the word "Caesar" as "Kaiser". My Duden Etymological Dictionary states that it is probably the oldest Latin loan word in German going back to the time before the birth of Christ. This is presumably a reliable indication of the way the Romans actually pronounced it. When it came into Old English as "casere" it retained its hard "c".

[Ein Heldenleben]

The Germans (Alemanni?) took over the word "Caesar" as "Kaiser". My Duden Etymological Dictionary states that it is probably the oldest Latin loan word in German going back to the time before the birth of Christ. This is presumably a reliable indication of the way the Romans actually pronounced it. When it came into Old English as "casere" it retained its hard "c".

So with this crucial piece of evidence and making three massive assumptions Martin should have said Kickada (short A’s as in cat ) this morning ?

[vinteuil]

So with this crucial piece of evidence and making three massive assumptions Martin should have said Kickada (short A’s as in cat ) this morning ?

... a long stressed a in the middle, I think. And we know that the Italians, also inheritors of Latin, call the beastie cicala - pronounced chi 'ka la. If they had wished to retain the k pronunciation of the first letter they wd have written it chicala

So stress certainly on the second - but realization of the letter c still up for grabs





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[french frank]

This is presumably a reliable indication of the way the Romans actually pronounced it.

It depends who you mean, of course, by the Romans. There were two Latin Languages: the written and the spoken, the spoken (Vulgar) being that largely of the illiterate; and that was a language which evolved even more rapidly than our own but spawned all the Romance languages. We know, from documents like the Appendix Probi, that people pronounced words wrongly. If we had an Appendix Probi now it would say things like:

not chimbley but chimney
not mischievious but mischievous
not aksherly but actually
not nucular but nuclear.

When language is passed on orally, that matters. Though if you want to instruct the illiterate, I'm not sure that a written list of their errors is the best way to achieve it.

It would not be justifiable to say kikada unless one was speaking Classical Latin, which I doubt even Kikero did.

[Ein Heldenleben]

It depends who you mean, of course, by the Romans. There were two Latin Languages: the written and the spoken, the spoken (Vulgar) being that largely of the illiterate; and that was a language which evolved even more rapidly than our own but spawned all the Romance languages. We know, from documents like the Appendix Probi, that people pronounced words wrongly. If we had an Appendix Probi now it would say things like:

not chimbley but chimney
not mischievious but mischievous
not aksherly but actually
not nucular but nuclear.

When language is passed on orally, that matters. Though if you want to instruct the illiterate, I'm not sure that a written list of their errors is the best way to achieve it.

It would not be justifiable to say kikada unless one was speaking Classical Latin, which I doubt even Kikero did.

I was partly taught Latin by an Oxford PH D who always sounded the hard C .No one else did though….

[french frank]

I was partly taught Latin by an Oxford PH D who always sounded the hard C .No one else did though….

So I learned at school, along with wenni, weedi, weeki. In the context of Classical Latin that's fine.

In reality, the 'Romans' seem to have had the bilabial fricative: βenni βeedi βeeki - as is present in modern Spanish, but is absent from languages like Italian and French.

[gurnemanz]

The Belarus athlete, Krystina Timanovskaya, is very much in the news. I heard a Belarus citizen being interviewed on the BBC this morning. He distinctly pronounced her name with stress on the 'ov'. Yet they are persisting with their 'Timanovskaya. It annoys me when they don't bother to get these things right. Bring back Angela Rippon.

[french frank]

Bring back Angela Rippon.

Remember her pronunciation of 'guerrilla'?

[kernelbogey]

It annoys me when they don't bother to get these things right. Bring back Angela Rippon.

Am I right in believing that 'the BBC pronunciation unit' was closed? Perhaps there's a digitised version available inhouse - but someone would still have to be updating it.

Incidentally, there was a period when the name Lukashenko was being correctly pronounced with the last syllable rhyming with 'a' - but many BBC staffers don't follow this.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

This one’s interesting. I’ve sometimes questioned the BBC’s pronunciation of Poulenc, but it seems they have been correct all along:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/magazinemonitor/2006/11/how_to_say_francis_poulenc.shtml

Even more interesting is the correct pronunciation of Dukas (with the S).

[Bryn]

This one’s interesting. I’ve sometimes questioned the BBC’s pronunciation of Poulenc, but it seems they have been correct all along:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/magazinemonitor/2006/11/how_to_say_francis_poulenc.shtml

Even more interesting is the correct pronunciation of Dukas (with the S).

Not forgetting 'Fronsex', which approximates to Jean René Désiré Françaix's preferred pronunciation of his family name, disagreements from some members of his extended family notwithstanding.

[french frank]

This one’s interesting. I’ve sometimes questioned the BBC’s pronunciation of Poulenc, but it seems they have been correct all along

Phonetically, it's interesting. If you say Poo-LENK in a very English way (LENK as in JENK-ins) and then nasalise the syllable you will automatically be saying it correctly.

Am I right in believing that 'the BBC pronunciation unit' was closed? Perhaps there's a digitised version available inhouse - but someone would still have to be updating it.

I think it still exists. It did up until very recently when I still took an interest in such things.

Incidentally, there was a period when the name Lukashenko was being correctly pronounced with the last syllable rhyming with 'a' - but many BBC staffers don't follow this.

I noticed the name of the hijacked journalist being widely transliterated as Raman Pratasevich, reflecting the Russian 'o' sound, rather than Roman Protasevich.

[LeMartinPecheur]

Not forgetting 'Fronsex', which approximates to Jean René Désiré Françaix's preferred pronunciation of his family name, disagreements from some members of his extended family notwithstanding.

Natalie Dessay kinda went in the opposite direction. Born Natalie Dessaix, she changed the spelling to avoid getting called Natalie DeSex outside France