Is this Cameron's Sepp Blatter moment?

[french frank]

(C/f also the racist abuse tram woman).

That does seem to me to create a new situation. This was something that was small-time, contained (and I think I read it was already under investigation). It seems to me that whatever verdict is returned on the woman, it is at least arguable that the person who posted the video clip on the internet should face similar charges for 'repeating' the abuse.

The Ross-Brand protests were criticised on the grounds that most people hadn't listened to the programme, though here it could be said that public interest was involved, whether people had listened or not, since the BBC and most of what it does is funded by the public. If the public wants to say to the BBC, 'Look, you're using my money to employ a load of offensive, attention-seeking egomaniacs, and I don't accept the answer is to tell me not to watch them', don't they have a point? Is Ross-Brand v. Clarkson just a matter of degree, with the BBC trusted (heh, heh!) to take a wise decision, or is there some more fundamental principle involved? Pressure from the state/government is, of course, not allowable.

Twitter and mobile phones can be used and abused, in the latter case increasingly becoming social irritants.

[Anna]

I've never seen Top Gear (why should I, I am neither a bloke nor interested in cars) However, I now know more about Jeremy Clarkson than I knew before. It seems this is not the first time that people have called for him to be sacked and, reading Wiki, some of his utterings are indeed offensive but I don't think they fall into the Ross-Brand category which targetting one old man. To me (his comments) they seem more like an old style Alf Garnett. Out of touch with reality, a dinosaur. Funny, there wasn't a campaign to ban that tv series (Till Death Us Do Part I think it was called, never seen it) was there?

Have we all become super-sensitive? Why should the BBC transmissions be whiter than white and totally anodyne?

[Lateralthinking1]

I agree. He is Alf for 2011 except in one respect. Alf wasn't earning a million a year.

First, nearly everyone has seen it. How could they not? It is absolutely everywhere. Secondly, it is more than simple offence. It is among other things, including possible incitement, the double standards. As I say, football supporters could not have said it in a ground without action being taken against them. Muslim leaders could not have made the same "joke" on The One Show about killing shoppers.

I was genuinely very upset by it. I still am. I would have felt exactly the same had the comments not been made about strikers but black, gay, disabled or elderly people or children or students or religious organisations or conservationists or private sector carers. I could add to that list ad infinitum. You could tell by the statements from the unions that many strikers were too. They would have preferred it had it not been on. How is that making capital?

I didn't like the political dimension. Why of all the people in the world did editors choose him for that family slot programme?
In what way is he a mate of Cameron? Has the friendship become close since the opportunity for media manipulation has gone with Coulson and Wade?

Mob culture is precisely what we are getting from these people. That let them hang. What others here are describing as mob culture is a civilised response from sections of the electorate. And ordinary people who say they make jokes - "I've got a bomb in my shoes but please still let me on the plane" - are treated with the utmost seriousness. "You say it is a joke; we say it is breaking the law". We are being governed by the Thought Police and its supporters.

[Anna]

I was genuinely very upset by it. I still am. I would have felt exactly the same had the comments not been made about strikers but black, gay, disabled or elderly people or children or students or religious organisations or conservationists or private sector carers. I could add to that list ad infinitum. You could tell by the statements from the unions that many strikers were too. They would have preferred it had it not been on. How is that making capital?

Yes, and Clarkson said he would ban the Welsh Language. But you, on this thread, said you would willingly shoot people I think.

[Lateralthinking1]

Yes, that with hindsight was an interesting moment because it preceded the broadcast. Earlier in the week, I was very upset - in fact it is becoming a way of life - and I wrote a few things to that effect about a Cabinet member. Rather than being cool, calculating and agreed with BBC editors and scriptwriters beforehand, I blurted it.

And in far less than an hour I removed it wholly unprompted by those who run the forum. Even with those emotions, I could see that it wasn't at all appropriate and I dealt with it.

I did say yesterday that my interest is in the protection of innocents which from my perspective would include the vast majority of the British population. My view is that if someone saw people being beaten up and knew that the perpetrators were renowned, then it would justify more than an equivalent action. It also needs to be punishable. Generally one hopes that the law is adequate. However, when it is the lawmakers that are the gang the options are more limited.

I am a democrat. This is not Libya, as was, but I no longer see any democracy in it. I am getting on a bit now so my slippers feel quite pleasant. Back in the early 1980s, I was a member of the SDP with an interest in PR but if were a student now, knowing what I know, I'd see revolutionary action as the only moral way. It doesn't please me to say it.

[Serial_Apologist]

I agree. He is Alf for 2011 except in one respect. Alf wasn't earning a million a year.

First, nearly everyone has seen it. How could they not? It is absolutely everywhere. Secondly, it is more than simple offence. It is among other things, including possible incitement, the double standards. As I say, football supporters could not have said it in a ground without action being taken against them. Muslim leaders could not have made the same "joke" on The One Show about killing shoppers.

I was genuinely very upset by it. I still am. I would have felt exactly the same had the comments not been made about strikers but black, gay, disabled or elderly people or children or students or religious organisations or conservationists or private sector carers. I could add to that list ad infinitum. You could tell by the statements from the unions that many strikers were too. They would have preferred it had it not been on. How is that making capital?

I didn't like the political dimension. Why of all the people in the world did editors choose him for that family slot programme?
In what way is he a mate of Cameron? Has the friendship become close since the opportunity for media manipulation has gone with Coulson and Wade?

Mob culture is precisely what we are getting from these people. That let them hang. What others here are describing as mob culture is a civilised response from sections of the electorate. And ordinary people who say they make jokes - "I've got a bomb in my shoes but please still let me on the plane" - are treated with the utmost seriousness. "You say it is a joke; we say it is breaking the law". We are being governed by the Thought Police and its supporters.

I agree.

IMV Clarkson used that flimsy claim of "objectivity" as an excuse to vent. Had he stopped at "I'd have them all shot", then given a wink as clear indication of no incitement intent... but no; and so either he is deserving of an Oscar for giving a remarkably true-to-life performance, or being true to his own body language. Interesting that Pee chooses a double excuse for this behaviour, in himself agreeing with Clarkson's sentiments whole simultaneously accusing others of not seeing it as a joke.

[Pilchardman]

That does seem to me to create a new situation. This was something that was small-time, contained (and I think I read it was already under investigation). It seems to me that whatever verdict is returned on the woman, it is at least arguable that the person who posted the video clip on the internet should face similar charges for 'repeating' the abuse.

Indeed. The woman, as I understand it, was escorted home by transport police and given a telling off. There was no opportunity for her to offend thousands, as she didn't film the incident and post it on the internet. The person who did that is the one who a) broadcast the material, b) infringed the privacy of the child, and c) infringed the privacy of a woman we are told has mental health issues.

If the public wants to say to the BBC, 'Look, you're using my money to employ a load of offensive, attention-seeking egomaniacs, and I don't accept the answer is to tell me not to watch them', don't they have a point?

They do have a point, but so do the people who do want the BBC to spend their money on 'attention-seeking egomaniacs'. I would rather weasels ate my eyes than watch Top Gear, but I understand that not only do millions love it, it ultimately makes a lot of money for the BBC. We have to accept that not everyone shares our taste. If nobody liked Top Gear, it wouldn't be made.

[teamsaint]

or they could have top gear with a talented host who doen't make offensive remarks, at a quarter of the fee.

Clarkson free to do his stuff on channel 4, ITV or wherever, and hundreds of thousands in public money saved.
Result all round.

[Lateralthinking1]

Plichardman - This is the latest locally.

http://www.croydonguardian.co.uk/news/9399636.British_Transport_Police_refute_claims_they_attended_tram_incident/

Just to clarify my earlier point about mental illness, I don't know about her background and circumstances. You might have read elsewhere that she has a condition? I haven't. But I was saying that such things needs to be known if it is to be followed up appropriately. It isn't a regular situation for someone on their own to have a go at tens of others, apparently unprompted, at around breakfast time in that way.

[Pilchardman]

Plichardman - This is the latest locally.

http://www.croydonguardian.co.uk/news/9399636.British_Transport_Police_refute_claims_they_attended_tram_incident/

Just to clarify my earlier point about mental illness, I don't know about her background and circumstances. You might have read elsewhere that she has a condition? I haven't.

Well, apparently it was her defence team that made the plea in mitigation at her court hearing. That report may too be erroneous, but also in the Croydon Guardian is a report containing mention of her having been recently in a psychiatric ward: http://www.thisiscroydontoday.co.uk/...ail/story.html

[Lateralthinking1]

Yes, thanks, that detail is enough for me. It is a regrettable incident. While it would have been distressing - or perhaps mostly bewildering - to the people on the tram, they would have then got on with their days. By contrast, she is likely to have a lot of worries currently - the attention, the possible range of consequences - which may well be difficult for her given her background, long-term and recent. You wouldn't find me siding with anyone who chose to vilify her.

Incidentally, I have followed the news reports but chose not to view the clip.

[ahinton]

To return to the thread, I wonder if, were Sepp Blatter to have a David Cameron moment, anyone would notice or indeed be able to tell the difference between it and what's being questioned here?...

[VodkaDilc]

I'm surprised the BBC apologised. They usually point out that people know what to expect by way of jokes from Clarkson and no offence was intended. Whereas anyone would be able to work out, I'd have thought, that his sole purpose in opening his mouth is to offend. A bad day for Chipping Norton yesterday ...

Those who live there would point out that Clarkson lives a good mile outside the town; and Cameron lives in Dean, which is a different place entirely (just follow the only perfectly tarmacked unclassified road in Oxfordshire and you can't miss it.)

Actually it was quite a good day for Chipping Norton - the Christmas lights were switched on!

[Mr Pee]

Incidentally, I have followed the news reports but chose not to view the clip.

Perhaps you should view the clip and then you might be in a better position to judge the issue. Believe me, it is far worse than you would think from the reports.

[MrGongGong]

I would rather weasels ate my eyes than watch Top Gear,

Surely you mean 'Weasels ripped my flesh"?

http://www.zappa.com/stufftoget/wallpaper/images/downloads/Weasels_Ripped_1024.jpg