If you've a few moments to spare....

[vinteuil]

Caliban in his #28 turns to food as a possible analogy.

I would perhaps use wine. With effort (enjoyable) and perseverance one can learn to distinguish various kinds of wine - to develop a discriminating palate, identifying the good and bad characteristics of wines. You may come to prefer burgundy to claret - but you have learnt to differentiate between them; and further to appreciate the specific virtues of a particular style. And normally will learn to recognise that, within a particular style, some bottles of wine are great, good, indifferent, or bad. Now you may perversely say you 'like' what others find to be rough, over sweet, thin, sour - that is of course your decision - but I wd maintain that it is meaningful to say that certain wines are better than others, and that it's worth putting in the effort to find out what's what. You can then discover whether you prefer claret to burgundy - and also to recognise what is good or bad about a particular bottle.

Is that other "made thing" - music - so different that one cannot usefully discuss good, bad, and indifferent of various styles - and learn in the process?

Since this discussion started with the case of K Jenkins - A Boe - A Rieu : perhaps I should have added another wine example.

There are bad, thin wines that are made apparently palatable by the pernicious adulteration with additives such as anti-freeze, which make the wine taste 'sweet' and mask its inherent deficiencies. These wines are bad for you....

[Anna]

I fully understand the wine analogy but it still comes down to personal taste and even with the best of education about viniculture some people will still prefer Blue Nun or Mateus Rose above anything else.

[vinteuil]

some people will still prefer Blue Nun or Mateus Rose above anything else.

o yes indeed - and nothing wrong with that. After all, some people like Elgar, Vaughan Williams, Shostakovitch, Liszt, Respighi...

[aeolium]

I still don't see in what way KJ, Boe, Rieu are bad for the people who like them.

Are you saying that there is good taste - which you have - and bad taste - which others have - which is bad for them in some moral or cultural way?

[barber olly]

But in the case of La Jenkins, she takes 'good' art & turns it in to 'bad' art - the music for the opera arias are re-written so that her voice can cope with them - yes, I know the composers did this, depending on who they had available, but they were adjusting or re-writing for good singers who they knew, & whose voices they approved of. I can't imagine they would have approved of Jenkins. The music as presented by Jenkins is a pastiche of the original, without its complexities. It's just not as good, & people who listen to it are fed a falsity.

I remember the first series of Pop Star to Opera Star where KJ was a judge - her 'opera' singing was upstaged by more than one of the pop stars not least by one of the Nolan Sisters.

[amateur51]

I did have a laugh, Floss, though... at the extent to which Norfy's innocent post about amazon had turned into a boiling crucible of debate on the nature of art and music

How prescient! That's the basis of Katie Price's next novel.

I'm told

[Flosshilde]

How prescient! That's the basis of Katie Price's next novel.

I'm told

You're not her ghost writer, are you?

[Flosshilde]

I did have a laugh, Floss, though... at the extent to which Norfy's innocent post about amazon had turned into a boiling crucible of debate on the nature of art and music

Indeed - who'd have known that Ms Jenkins et al would have had so many passionate devotees on the board?

[amateur51]

You're not her ghost writer, are you?

Not for all the silicon in California, flossie

[aeolium]

Indeed - who'd have known that Ms Jenkins et al would have had so many passionate devotees on the board?

Why do you assume that those who defend people's right to enjoy Ms J et al are passionate devotees?

What I find surprising is the vehemence of people on this board about Ms J - I would have expected complete indifference.

[Nick Armstrong]

I would have expected complete indifference.

No, no - there is a complex horror to her which will hardly provoke indifference.

To quote the Python "Australian Table Wine" sketch (weaving in Vindetable's wine analogy perhaps), La Jenkins must have a special place for those keen on regurgitation - enormous appeal for real emetic fans.

[Flosshilde]

[Flosshilde]

complete indifference.

Rather like her 'talents'.

[Mr Pee]

I've been following this thread for a while and have been marvelling at the intellectual snobbery and condescension displayed by certain posters. My auntie enjoys Katherine Jenkins, Il Divo, and Alfie Boe- who actually has a pretty good voice, and is a charming bloke as well- and if were to read some of the comments on here I imagine she would be mortified. Her choice of music is not mine, just as mine is not hers, but I would deeply resent being told that one is somehow more worthy of attention than the other.

Music should be about enjoyment, emotion, and variety, not intellectual one-upmanship.

[Mr Pee]

(sorry - I won't post any more comments)

I thought my dreams had come true there for a moment....shame you didn't stick to your word.......