The end of HIP as we know it?

[french frank]

And created somewhere else .

It's probably a mistake to assume that if the EU didn't bring in this sort of legislation, national governments wouldn't either. There seem to be ways out and degrees of discretion at 'local' level.

[Now, must just email my MEP and thank him for his prompt attention to the matter]

[John Skelton]

Almost certainly . It does seem fantastically complicated, though.

It wasn't nonsense, to the extent that there are regulations concerning cow gut which affect the manufacture of gut strings if the correct exemption is not applied. This was evidently not done by France until last year (and the French manufacturer gave up) and was the case in Italy until a public petition and pressure caused the exemption to be applied. There was obviously some level of complexity (perhaps unsurprising, given the arcane nature of the 'product'). What is the obsession with this story as an example of 'Euroscepticism'? It was a story about a problem which seems to have been resolved.

I can't think of another country in Europe where it would have been discussed on a music message board in the terms in which it has been discussed here. Perhaps that indicates some underlying insecurity in the British about how European they actually are?

[John Skelton]

It's probably a mistake to assume that if the EU didn't bring in this sort of legislation, national governments wouldn't either. There seem to be ways out and degrees of discretion at 'local' level.

[Now, must just email my MEP and thank him for his prompt attention to the matter]

Indeed. But there wouldn't be the gap between general and local application (local law would be applied in particular circumstances and modified accordingly). To make clear: I have no objection to the idea of law applicable across Europe or arrived at on a European basis. My European objections are to the project of Euro-capitalism, and they are not different to my predictable objections to the project of 'local' capitalism. That's why I've found the responses to this story as discussed here - springing to the defence of the EU - so puzzling. It had nothing to do with any of that (as discussed here), that I can see.

[scottycelt]

Who, here, said it was an "EU scandal"? That was your interest in the story. Please quote a single comment saying it was an "EU scandal."

If we are all going to be as conveniently pedantic as that, please quote a single comment where I claimed anyone here said it was an 'EU scandal'.?

In all honesty, there is really not a lot more to be said in any case, as the excellent intervention of Old Grumpy (wonderful name, wish I'd thought of it!) has now effectively rendered any further controversy on the matter redundant.

You did say (did you not?) that you probably knew more about the issue than any other member and that I, personally, had nothing to contribute to the discussion, and am also something called 'a troll' which I've never been called before on this or indeed the rather more anarchic and now defunct forum. Still, I suppose I've been called much, much worse (things).

However much you now plead 'it wasn't me, Guv', forgive the now distinct feeling that others may have had rather more to say on the subject than you ever seemed to grasp.

[John Skelton]

If we are all going to be as conveniently pedantic as that, please quote a single comment where I claimed anyone here said it was an 'EU scandal'.?

In all honesty, there is really not a lot more to be said in any case, as the excellent intervention of Old Grumpy (wonderful name, wish I'd thought of it!) has now effectively rendered any further controversy on the matter redundant.

You did say (did you not?) that you probably knew more about the issue than any other member and that I, personally, had nothing to contribute to the discussion, and am also something called 'a troll' which I've never been called before on this or indeed the rather more anarchic and now defunct forum. Still, I suppose I've been called much, much worse (things).

However much you now plead 'it wasn't me, Guv', forgive the now distinct feeling that others may have had rather more to say on the subject than you ever seemed to grasp.

I probably did know more about the subject than other contributors to this thread up to Old Grumpy posting news of the Italian government's actions*. Simply because I'd tried to find out what I could by talking to people affected, by looking at Aquila Corde Armoniche's Facebook campaign, and by seeing what I could find on the internet. For instance, I knew why cow gut not sheep gut is important for 'cello and bass strings.

*(which hadn't taken place when this thread began: so all the publicity has helped, hasn't it? Given that it took a French manufacturer to close down and Aquila Corde Armoniche to announce they were closing production before anything was done. Here's what they have to say

http://www.aquilacorde.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=190&Itemid=1471&lang=en

I presume you are interested, despite no previous evidence on this thread that the subject of the thread - cow gut string manufacture - interests you?).

Though you appear to think differently I simply wanted (a) to respond to the OP and (b) for music lovers here to take an interest in the subject. I couldn't give a whatever about being right on the internet (so if you want to feel you have been right on the internet, be my guest). I suppose it might be wondered why the system needs to be so complicated and why it took an internet campaign to clarify who needed to do what where. But it's sorted, so that's fine (the outcome is clearly satisfactory to Aquila Corde Armoniche).

The original post was:

The end of HIP as we know it?

How's this for a bizarre story? Should we "barrockers" be worried? Or is it just more Daily Mail hysteria?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...t-strings.html

Other than general remarks about Euroscepticism you haven't, that I can see, responded to that OP. I apologise for calling you a troll. You do seem here to have been more interested in discussing what interests you rather than the subject raised. The answer to the original post was that it wasn't 'just' Daily Mail hysteria, because it was a story reported elsewhere in Europe, and was the subject of an internet campaign by the manufacturer affected. It wasn't 'just' Daily Mail hysteria because HIPP string players had been discussing it for months shading into years (see the comments sections of The Strad. See strinasacchi's comments at R3OK).

I shall now leave you to enjoy whatever warm message board glow the message board triumph it is you think you've won gives you. Have a good Wednesday.

[scottycelt]

Much of the rest of your post apart, thank you for the apology, John. I do not claim to be a saint or even getting anything right on a messageboard.

I have no warm glow this morning as it's actually quite chilly and I certainly don't consider I've 'won' anything. I merely expressed shamefully sarcastic 'surprise' at Old Grumpy's post.

I always admitted I had no personal interest in HIPP and that you were perfectly correct to suspect that.

However, whether the main issue was ever actually about HIPP or excessive EU regulation is a moot point.

If I have concentrated on the EU factor unduly I, in turn, apologise to you, but would point out in my own defence that I was only following the example of the newspaper report in the link provided by the OP!

[John Skelton]

I always admitted I had no personal interest in HIPP and that you were perfectly correct to suspect that.

Thanks. I did wonder.

However, whether the main issue was ever actually about HIPP or excessive EU regulation is a moot point.

Sorry, it isn't a "moot point." If the OP had asked "does The Daily Mail really care about the production of cow gut strings for 'period' string instruments, or is it just interested in this story as another chance to bash the EU over regulation?" then the answer would certainly be no and yes. And your involvement in this thread would have fitted comfortably on-topic with that subject.

But it wasn't. It was

The end of HIP as we know it?

How's this for a bizarre story? Should we "barrockers" be worried? Or is it just more Daily Mail hysteria?

At that stage it was a story about which, Daily Mail or no Daily Mail, members of the FOR3 forum interested in period instrument performances might have worried, or worried enough to sign a petition. Sofracob (Société Française de Corde en Boyaux), the French manufacturer, had shut up shop last year citing difficulties related to post-BSE regulation. Aquila Corde Armoniche announced that they were ceasing production of cow gut strings. Subsequent publicity and the internet petition have clearly done the job in Italy: so there were indeed local exemptions which could be applied and they have been. Which is good news for those of us who care about such things.

The topic of this thread was not the British press and the EU. It was the effect of post-BSE EU legislation on the production of cow gut strings for period instruments (whether or not local exemptions could be applied. Which, happily, they have been). The story itself wasn't 'scaremongering' as rauschwerk (#4 suggested) (whatever the motives of The Daily Mail in running it. And I have no doubt it's not something they care about in itself), nor, indeed, was the story only reported in Britain:

See http://www.thestrad.com/Article.asp?ArticleID=2063 and note the following comment from that page:-

"As a maker of baroque instruments, and I am also involved in the production of gut strings, I am quite interested in this story. It is necessary to remember that the favourite material used in the production of gut strings is sheep gut, and this material is not forbidden at all. On top of this, laws regulating importation into the EU of cattle gut date from at least ten years ago and have not changed ever since. I wonder why this story has come out only now."

It's another excuse for the Daily Wail to keep up its relentless and illogical Euro-bashing.

Despite the link to The Strad that's not accurate.

is it important to use beef-gut for decent gut strings?

Yes. Cow gut is longer and stronger than sheep/goat, and essential for making cello/bass strings. I've played both sheep and cow violin strings, and they do make a different sound and react differently to temperature and so on. And I know there are always some compromises when it comes to historical "authenticity", but cow gut has always been an essential ingredient.

http://www.r3ok.com/index.php/topic,3542.0.html

It seems to me that your approach to this story and The Daily Mail's are mirror images. The Daily Mail was only interested in it to bash EU regulation. You were only interested in it to bash those who bash EU regulation. But it was not a story made up for the former purpose (straight banana etc.); it was a real enough if of marginal interest difficulty arising from the complex business of applying doubtless ambiguous law across countries and relying on individual countries to apply exemptions. It would have been possible to discuss it away from a squabble about EU regulation. But you showed no preparedness to do that. Here is your first contribution:

It's disgusting ... Mad Cow Disease was originally a British disease through and through so what's it got to do with those busybodies in Brussels? Nigel Farage is reported to be 'incandescent with rage'.

Dave had better re-negotiate the swift return of our diseases now, or there'll be 'A Grand Remonstrance' by the Little Englanders, believe me ...

Perhaps you have a reputation for message board wit, but however often I read that - hilarious as it doubtless is - I can't see it as especially on-topic.

[amateur51]

John Skelton, I wonder if you are aware that scotty occasionally exhibits Last Word Syndrome?

You'll be here all week if you don't extricate yourself sharpish - non-response is the best approach

[doversoul1]

John Skelton, I wonder if you are aware that scotty occasionally exhibits Last Word Syndrome?

You'll be here all week if you don't extricate yourself sharpish - non-response is the best approach

I’ve been wondering if scotty has met his match.

[french frank]

At that stage it was a story about which, Daily Mail or no Daily Mail, members of FOR3 interested in period instrument performances might have worried, or worried enough to sign a petition.

Could I just point out (for the record) that something in excess of 90% of the members here have no connection with FoR3 other than that they avail themselves of the facilities offered, freely - and welcome, by this public forum? FoR3 is a separate organisation with its own supporters.

[John Skelton]

Could I just point out (for the record) that something in excess of 90% of the members here have no connection with FoR3 other than that they avail themselves of the facilities offered, freely - and welcome, by this public forum? FoR3 is a separate organisation with its own supporters.

My apologies, ff. I wrote "FOR3" metonymically for "the FOR3 Forum"; I shall edit my post accordingly .

[scottycelt]

John, on reflection, you are so right and I have been terribly wrong all along.

Many apologies ...

[Flosshilde]

I’ve been wondering if scotty has met his match.

[John Skelton]

Originally Posted by doversoul

I’ve been wondering if scotty has met his match.

You are, of course, correct . I'm afraid I found the sense of being ... presented as saying something I knew perfectly well I wasn't saying intensely irritating. Looking back - all rather embarrassing.

I don't think I am cut out for the FOR3 Message Board - I lack the necessary lightness of touch to participate, to keep up with the regulars. So I shall make this my last FOR3 Message Board word.

All the very best.

[doversoul1]

Oh John. For goodness sake! Your posts have been some of the best in the last few weeks (or months? I’ve lost count). Most of us have had embarrassing and upsetting and hurting experiences here. You can’t just go like that. The EMS Board is too light as it is.

DON’T GO.