The end of HIP as we know it?

[scottycelt]

What has any of this to do with the original post?

It was meant to be in jest ... well, nearly.

If you actually dig deep with these EU stories (whether proven true or false) you invariably find that they are not news at all but have simply been regurgitated by the Euro-sceptic press to make political points.

This particular one has been around for years ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/may/21/bse

[scottycelt]

Whilst John Skelton is quite right to question whether any of this has anything to do with the original post, I suppose that it's arguably quite droll in itself, as far as it goes. The prospect of Mr UKIP-if-you-want-to Farage "incandescent" with or without anything is surely one that might afford a certain amount of relief to some...

But while some of us might for the time being be contemplating the possible outcome of a HIP relacement operation, perhaps you might also care (if you have the guts to do so) to contribute something a little more serious in direct response to the thread topic (or perhaps you might not); in the meantime, why would you be especially exercised over possible "remonstrances" by "Englanders", anyway?

Bring me my Tourte bow of burning gold mount.

Ahem...

I hope my reply to John was serious enough for you, ahinton ...

Unlike you, I'm not 'especially exercised' over any of this, that's the whole point!

I don't know what you mean 'if you have the guts' ... unless it was meant to be some sort of well-disguised pun, that has surely got to be the most eccentric comment ever uttered on an anonymous public forum!

[ahinton]

I hope my reply to John was serious enough for you, ahinton ...

I think I'd already made myself clear on this point.

Unlike you, I'm not 'especially exercised' over any of this, that's the whole point!

Apart from the fact that I have provided no evidence as to whether or to what extent I might be "especially exercised" over the thread topic, let alone over your remonstrances and Little Englanders, I can only rfetort that, if you're not exercised over any suchn things, why respond in this thread at all?

I don't know what you mean about 'not having the guts' ... unless it was meant to be some sort of well-disguised pun

Then indeed you do know - except that it's neither a "pun" as such nor yet "disguised", "well" or otherwise.

Anyway:

Bring my Tourte bow of burning gold mount!
Bring me my A strings of desire!
Bring me my cello loud and bold!
Bring me no karaoke dire!
I’ll have no Es from metal wrought,
Nor shall my sword sleep on my HIPP,
Till we have built Cremona fair
In England's green and gutless land.

I've got me coat...

[scottycelt]

I think I'd already made myself clear on this point.


Apart from the fact that I have provided no evidence as to whether or to what extent I might be "especially exercised" over the thread topic, let alone over your remonstrances and Little Englanders, I can only rfetort that, if you're not exercised over any suchn things, why respond in this thread at all?


Then indeed you do know - except that it's neither a "pun" as such nor yet "disguised", "well" or otherwise.

Anyway:

Bring my Tourte bow of burning gold mount!
Bring me my A strings of desire!
Bring me my cello loud and bold!
Bring me no karaoke dire!
I’ll have no Es from metal wrought,
Nor shall my sword sleep on my HIPP,
Till we have built Cremona fair
In England's green and gutless land.

I've got me coat...

Wrap up well and take care now, ahinton ...

[ahinton]

Wrap up well and take care now, ahinton ...

Whilst I thank you for your kind thoughts, scotty, I should perhaps also point out that it's around 10 degrees where I am right now so, although that's still unconfortably cold for me, I'm sure that I'll survive!

Anyway - back to the topic!

[John Skelton]

If you actually dig deep with these EU stories (whether proven true or false) you invariably find that they are not news at all but have simply been regurgitated by the Euro-sceptic press to make political points.

This particular one has been around for years ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/may/21/bse

How does it being around for years make the situation better for the producers and the musicians affected? If it being around for years means anything it means that nothing has been done for years to put a ridiculous situation right.

Here are Aquila Corde Armoniche. November 14, 2011

http://www.aquilacorde.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=190&Itemid=1471&lang=en

Here is Dmitry Badiarov's blog November 19, 2011 http://violoncellodaspalla.blogspot....sed-by-eu.html

This is, at least in parts, a music message board. If you aren't 'especially exercised' about it why do you feel the need to contribute? It's only a story about 'Euroscepticism' if people who are obsessed with 'Euroscepticism' one way or another chose to make it one. That's The Daily Mail and scottycelt. Is there any chance this conversation could now get back to the OP's original question?

Should we "barrockers" be worried? Or is it just more Daily Mail hysteria?

It isn't a story manufactured by the Daily Mail (who, I'm sure, care as much about HIPP as scottycelt) and clearly performers of baroque music using gut strings are worried.

[Edit - scottycelt: "This particular one has been around for years." Dmitry Badiarov: "The current EU legislation effectively kills this. Aquila Corde has been battling with this issue both in Rome and Brussels since 2006 trying to involve other string makers and important musicians but the ministers in charge remained deaf."]

[MickyD]

How does it being around for years make the situation better for the producers and the musicians affected? If it being around for years means anything it means that nothing has been done for years to put a ridiculous situation right.

Here are Aquila Corde Armoniche. November 14, 2011

http://www.aquilacorde.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=190&Itemid=1471&lang=en

Here is Dmitry Badiarov's blog November 19, 2011 http://violoncellodaspalla.blogspot....sed-by-eu.html

This is, at least in parts, a music message board. If you aren't 'especially exercised' about it why do you feel the need to contribute? It's only a story about 'Euroscepticism' if people who are obsessed with 'Euroscepticism' one way or another chose to make it one. That's The Daily Mail and scottycelt. Is there any chance this conversation could now get back to the OP's original question?

Should we "barrockers" be worried? Or is it just more Daily Mail hysteria?

It isn't a story manufactured by the Daily Mail (who, I'm sure, care as much about HIPP as scottycelt) and clearly performers of baroque music using gut strings are worried.

[Edit - scottycelt: "This particular one has been around for years." Dmitry Badiarov: "The current EU legislation effectively kills this. Aquila Corde has been battling with this issue both in Rome and Brussels since 2006 trying to involve other string makers and important musicians but the ministers in charge remained deaf."]

Thanks for the clarification, John. I should say that as a hugely enthusiastic fan of HIP for some 30 years, I was genuinely worried by the article and its implications.

[John Skelton]

Micky - worth bookmarking and keeping an eye on Dmitry Badiarov's blog http://violoncellodaspalla.blogspot....sed-by-eu.html for updates and the promised petition.

"Please, stay connected for there will be an online petition. As soon as we know it has been published we shall announce its URL through our social networks."

As it stands it does look as if this is a significant threat to the continuance of the kinds of historically informed performance we've enjoyed so much over the past 30 + years .

[edit: petition http://www.petizionionline.it/petizi...musicale/5598]

[Bryn]

I would again refer you to the message (from PW) linked to in message 3, the content of which reads:

I am not convinced by the Telegraph story. I know from long personal experience that the Telegraph's coverage of EU affairs is deeply dishonest and untouched by any understanding of EU process (a Directive on which I worked was once described in the Telegraph as being "secretly pushed through by civil servants" despite the implementing regulations having been subject to a full three-month public consultation and approved by Parliament - they also misrepresented what it did. One phone call was all they needed to establish the truth ...).

The problem here seems not to be the EU legislation but the fact that the Italian government has not transposed the legislation into domestic law, therefore not providing a mechanism for securing an exemption - it's the Italian government's failure to act that has caused the problem (just to be clear, all EU legislation - with the exception of a few technical regulations which apply directly - is made at Member States who are required to transpose them into national legislation. If there is an exemption process contained in a Directive, and the national government has failed to transpose the Directive, then domestic businesses or individuals do not have access to that process. That is what seems to have happened in this case).

I have no doubt that, for the manufacturers and users, the problem is real. But this looks like a case where it's not the EU legislation that is to blame.

For the most part, the British media's coverage of EU affairs displays a woeful ignorance of how the EU works. It's a real problem because the EU matters and informed democracy really needs something far better than the media give us.

From what PW has to say, it would indeed appear that the solution lies in Rome, rather than Brussels.

[John Skelton]

I would again refer you to the message (from PW) linked to in message 3
From what PW has to say, it would indeed appear that the solution lies in Rome, rather than Brussels.

Yes, I know. And I also linked to and quoted from PW on R3OK. Badiarov might be misinformed, but he seems to be convinced the problem lies in both Rome and Brussels.

"There are several laws causing the crisis. One of these laws can be found here ...." http://violoncellodaspalla.blogspot....sed-by-eu.html "The current EU legislation effectively kills this. Aquila Corde has been battling with this issue both in Rome and Brussels since 2006 trying to involve other string makers and important musicians but the ministers in charge remained deaf."

I don't for a moment doubt PW's expertise in the field, but he is commenting in general and not on this particular case.

[Flosshilde]

Yes, I know. And I also linked to and quoted from PW on R3OK. Badiarov might be misinformed, but he seems to be convinced the problem lies in both Rome and Brussels.

Just because he's convinced doesn't mean that it's the case.

I don't for a moment doubt PW's expertise in the field, but he is commenting in general and not on this particular case.

It does sound rather as if PW has more first-hand experience both of how EU legislation works, and how it is mis-understood & mis-represented by a Europhobic British press, than Badiarov does.


Presumably if the Italian government does what it should have done a few years ago the problem will be solved. Nobody commenting on it has said what the reserves of a) raw materials and b) made strings are & how long that supply might last, based on experience of normal demand - long enough for producers in other countries to be able to expand production? The comments on their ability to cope sounds as if people are expecting mass panic-buying of gut strings.

[John Skelton]

Just because he's convinced doesn't mean that it's the case.



It does sound rather as if PW has more first-hand experience both of how EU legislation works, and how it is mis-understood & mis-represented by a Europhobic British press, than Badiarov does.


Presumably if the Italian government does what it should have done a few years ago the problem will be solved. Nobody commenting on it has said what the reserves of a) raw materials and b) made strings are & how long that supply might last, based on experience of normal demand - long enough for producers in other countries to be able to expand production? The comments on their ability to cope sounds as if people are expecting mass panic-buying of gut strings.

I know that just because Badiarov is convinced doesn't mean it's the case. Presumably he's looked into it a bit, though. I also know PW, and he does indeed have first-hand experience of how EU legislation works: if you read his comments, though, he is careful to make clear that he is commenting generally and not specifically.

This thread seems to have become a commentary on the "Europhobic British Press." It isn't only being reported in Britain. http://aktuell.klassik.com/news/teas...20dem%20Aus%3F

[Flosshilde]

This thread seems to have become a commentary on the "Europhobic British Press."

Well, since it's being presented as a 'dastardly EU legislation' story, rather than a 'disfunctional & inefficient Italian parliament' one that's not surprising.


Some of the reactions make me think of people worrying about sugar supplies (or whatever) during the Suez crisis, or the Bay of Pigs crisis. I mean, has anyone (or does anyone) know what the reserves are, & how long they might last if normal demand was maintained?

[John Skelton]

Well, since it's being presented as a 'dastardly EU legislation' story, rather than a 'disfunctional & inefficient Italian parliament' one that's not surprising.

I don't see why it need be presented as either. Do you know that it's the fault of a dysfunctional and inefficient Italian parliament rather than EU legislation?

This doesn't suggest it is

We regret to inform our customers that the production of gut strings is closed both for bad quality of raw material, that since some months is sold to us, and for the strict European legislation, and therefore also Italian, that forbids the production and use of beef gut ( this material is employed , nowdays, from most of the US and EU gut stringmakers) and prohibits not only the use of Italian or European gut , but also the import of raw material extra EU.

http://www.aquilacorde.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=190&Itemid=1471&lang=en

Some of the reactions make me think of people worrying about sugar supplies (or whatever) during the Suez crisis, or the Bay of Pigs crisis. I mean, has anyone (or does anyone) know what the reserves are, & how long they might last if normal demand was maintained?

What bizarre analogies. Aquila Corde Armoniche say "we have already finished existing stock of gut strings."

Badiarov Aquila is not the first to stop the production of gut strings. Sofracob, the French company which
was in business for 37 years closed in February 2010 for the same reason Aquila stopped the production earlier this month.

The closure of Sofracob was a massive loss, however the closure of Aquila's gut-string production will have the most disastrous consequences.

Aquila was the only EU company capable of meeting the global demand for gut strings.

Sofracob was French, not Italian. So it's a dysfunctional and inefficient French parliament as well?

If no more can be manufactured they'll run out eventually. You can scarcely expect musicians to sanguinely carry on until 'normal demand' has exhausted what must be a finite supply ... and then do what? You seem keen to believe that the musicians are wrong about the origins of the problem, or simply don't understand that it isn't a problem. Is Nikolaj de Fine Licht, General Manager of Concerto Copenhagen wrong (comment on Badiarov's blog)?

[John Skelton]

Here's what the French company Sofracob (Société Française de Corde en Boyaux) had to say


Ever since the onset of Mad Cow Disease (BSE), we have done our best to maintain our business activity. Unfortunately, however, despite all our efforts, we must inform you that SOFRACOB will terminate its business at the end of February 2010.

http://www.musiqueancienne.org/index.php?module=News&func=display&sid=239