The Left: Moribund.

[amateur51]

Fascinating that your initial contribution to this thread accuses me of a 'wind-up', when ALL of your subsequent contributions could be thus described - including your response to a very civilised and courteous 'word in your ear' from yours truly.

Pot, kettle, black, methinks, me old tangerine. :)

What moving goalposts? I thought you could derive the inference from the extract I quoted: Keralach's economy depends on the contributions of its economicaly exiled sons and daughters who must go out into the big, bad (but rich) capitalist world in order to send money home.

And I think you'll find if you care to re-read my posts (go on, you know you've nothing else to do :)) that the only member I make assumption about is your good self: but they're safe assumptions and their validity is always borne out by your subsequent behaviour.

Honestly, am, if any playwright dared put you on a public stage, he'd be savaged by the critics for creating a 'homophobic caricature' - which should give you some pause for thought.

Honestly, am, if any playwright dared put you on a public stage, he'd be savaged by the critics for creating a 'homophobic caricature' - which should give you some pause for thought.

I tumbled to the fact that you're doing a John Osborne impersonation a while back, Mandy me old durian (prickly & stinky on the outside, sweety & delicious on the inside ) - care to explain your 'homophobic caricature' remark?

Re moving goalposts - you asked for an example (just the one, Mrs Wembley) of a socialist/communist country that had done well (excluding Cuba for your own reasons) and I gave you Kerala. And now you've found another sort of reasons to invalidate Kerala. That's moving the goalposts in my book.

[Donnie Essen]

This stuff confuses me, probably 'cause I don't pay attention on a day-to-day basis. I currently have a day-job at a university. Some folk there are going on strike - those who are attached to particular unions, but not others, who are attached to other unions (Unison, for example, whose members' pensions are different and not affected). Universities ain't strictly public sector, and the staff are not civil servants, but the institutions have charitable status, so have to toe the line according to what the government wants sometimes. They used to get money from the government to teach, but now they've taken all that away and making the students pay for themselves. What is public sector about the universities now, and why are they involved in their pensions? Can't they split from it?

[Pilchardman]

What is public sector about the universities now, and why are they involved in their pensions? Can't they split from it?

Many organisations - voluntary orgs, housing associations and so on - participate in local government pension schemes. This often happens when a service is outsourced to the voluntary sector, for example.

I wouldn't be crossing a picket line anyway, Donnie.

[Lateralthinking1]

One of the things that is a real pity is the way in which the protesters will look. How they will appear on the cameras through no fault of their own will enable opponents to misrepresent them. They will get away with that opposition simply because of flesh and bone.

Make no mistake. Whether it is 500,000 or one million or two million on the streets, every single one of the marchers will be over 60. Some will be in their 70s, 80s, 90s. Many will be walking with sticks or be in wheelchairs. Huge numbers will be seriously ill.

For this is a march of the elderly. It is the elderly of tomorrow. It has nothing to do with the current ages of the people on the march. And whatever is the Government's response, it will be a response to the vulnerable and the infirm. The whole of society should take note and feel a cold shiver should it not be successful.

PS Quote - "This whole imbroglio" etc - I know who said that first!

[teamsaint]

One of the things that is a real pity is the way in which the protesters will look. How they will appear on the cameras through no fault of their own will enable opponents to misrepresent them. They will get away with that opposition simply because of flesh and bone.

Make no mistake. Whether it is 500,000 or one million or two million on the streets, every single one of the marchers will be over 60. Some will be in their 70s, 80s, 90s. Many will be walking with sticks or be in wheelchairs. Huge numbers will be seriously ill.

For this is a march of the elderly. It is the elderly of tomorrow. It has nothing to do with the current ages of the people on the march. And whatever is the Government's response, it will be a response to the vulnerable and the infirm. The whole of society should take note and feel a cold shiver should it not be successful.

and the questioning of march leaders by BBC journalists will be highly aggressive, like it was last time there was a strike.

because BBC journalists aren't paid out of public funds !!

[Donnie Essen]

Many organisations - voluntary orgs, housing associations and so on - participate in local government pension schemes. This often happens when a service is outsourced to the voluntary sector, for example.

I wouldn't be crossing a picket line anyway, Donnie.

Not sure I follow. There's a particular scheme, the Universities Superannuation Scheme, which folk on higher pay-grades and academic grades are on (they're the ones going on strike). I guess I should ask around at work.

I guess I will be crossing the picket line. Not out of lack of empathy or anything. The folk around me don't have the blessing or order from their union to strike, so lots of folk'll likely be in the place working too. Got commitments that day. Appointments. We'll probably play a little more hacky sack than on a usual day, though.

[Pilchardman]

Not sure I follow.

My point is that it isn't only a public sector issue. I don't know the specifics of your workplace, but know that for example many organisations that are not public sector opt into public sector pension schemes.

I'm sorry to hear that you're crossing a picket line. It isn't the kind of behaviour I've ever succumbed to or condoned.

[Lateralthinking1]

The year is 2043. Lord Maude, 90, peers out of a window in Parliament, wistfully flicking the remaining grey hair out of his eyes. He is there less regularly now. The travel to London from Horsham isn't as nice. Too many old folk in cardboard boxes on the streets. They are a disgrace to the country. Parts of the A23 even stink of their urine. Still, the Lord is in contemplative mood.

How strange, he feels, to still be here and in reasonably fine fettle too. Nostalgia wafts a little around the room. He thinks back to his past family. Angus, the intransigent father, who always had to get his way. Charles, the brother who fell in a family where there were only to be winners or losers. Could there have been any other psychology? Some say so but he still doubts it.

Charles. Poor Charles. The Lord Maude recalls him with some affection, that is, to the extent that he has ever felt affection. He is aware of being seen as remote but doesn't quite comprehend it. Yes, Charles. It was a pity. Still, it was a family of winners and losers. Charles was one of life's losers. That is how things were to be.

The Lord comes away from the window. There is the thought of the next journey between London and Horsham. He tries to block it out. On balance, he thinks, it was just as well that he was more like his father. Better not to have died so young even with all of the ensuing anger. Politically he was able to channel it. Like Angus, he was born to be a man who just had to have his own way.

[Donnie Essen]

My point is that it isn't only a public sector issue. I don't know the specifics of your workplace, but know that for example many organisations that are not public sector opt into public sector pension schemes.

I'm sorry to hear that you're crossing a picket line. It isn't the kind of behaviour I've ever succumbed to or condoned.

I see your point about the pensions. I need to look into the specifics.

It ain't so contentious at our place. It's less that I'm crossing a picket line, more that a picket line will be in my path as I walk in, and there'll probably be a few hundred students going past and knockin' around the place anyway(given that they now pay so much in coin, I can't imagine them all being too sympathetic, but that's another matter). There's more than one union, and I ain't in the one that's striking. There will be a tiny minority of militant-type folk on my level and grade out on strike in support of the people who are in the striking union, but the vast majority will be there at work. If Unison were on strike too, the place would probably be near-closed and I wouldn't cross the picket line.

[Lateralthinking1]

Could I just remind you please that we all pay "in coin" - ie towards pensions after university or school. It isn't about sympathy. It is about a sense of decency and responsibility that for decades most would never have had the selfishness to question.

Perhaps if they took their ears away from their phones and got out of their cars, they might have a chance to see that they are adults. The big news is that this involves responsibilities to others and not just themselves.

Get that vibe going on this and it might pay dividends. Fewer diseases, fewer unwanted births, longer marriages and partnerships. Less pollution. That kind of thing.

[MrGongGong]

Would all those going on strike do the same to support those of us with NO company pension, sick pay or paid holidays ?

hummmm

I wonder

[Lateralthinking1]

You are arguing that if you are rolling in the gutter you want as many as possible to be with you. How would you describe what this says about your character?

Unions have never argued for lower conditions for anyone. That is one key difference in the opposing viewpoints.

You are in a largish group that for the first time in history is advocating discomfort for the old in the biggest possible numbers. Rule Britannia. Bet your relatives who fought in the World Wars are looking at you from the heavens full of pride.

Being in the private sector, you will be aware of contracts. Say those buying into your enterprise decide to rip them up. Which way forward? Do tell. This is about contractual obligations. Ignore them for me and I will employ you but not pay. Equal rights.

The same goes for students who have little sympathy cos they are paying "in coin" for things that are in their own interests. Yeah, I will call up their companies, give them hope, and then there will be the catch. You don't get any money, ha ha. It's only fair.

Tell you what. If pensioners have loads of time and no money, they could muck people around in huge numbers. Not just Victor Meldrew doing it. They could bring the rest of the system crashing down. Degrees will be a waste of time. You won't know who to believe or even be able to function in business. Hours of wasted time.

Bring it on! I'm ready. We'll get the organisation sorted out now.

[Donnie Essen]

Perhaps if they took their ears away from their phones and got out of their cars

And spent all day getting chided on the internet?

When I said pay 'in coin', I was referring only to users of universities and where their money goes. For better or worse, they're customers now. But like I said, that's another matter.

Would the academics and higher grade staff go on strike without their union's say-so to support Unison members if they were on strike? Can't see it. I recall a Unison picket line there once. I recognised everyone there. No-one else out in support. They can suck my ass.

Note again I'm talking only about the University set-up here. Not about school-teachers or nurses or anyone else. I wish them the best.

[Lateralthinking1]

I'm sure you have your nuances. I am warming to my theme in number 72. I stumbled on it but I can see a chink of light. Long after this union action and this Government, we will need to see where we are.

BUT if in 10 or 20 years time the situation is dire for thousands if not millions of pensioners, we can smash the entire system to bits by not honouring the rules of business. From here, it looks remarkably plausible. Punk ethics. Nothing or little to lose.

You had better keep us on side.

[MrGongGong]

You are arguing that if you are rolling in the gutter you want as many as possible to be with you. How would you describe what this says about your character?

Unions have never argued for lower conditions for anyone. That is one key difference in the opposing viewpoints.

You are in a largish group that for the first time in history is advocating discomfort for the old in the biggest possible numbers. Rule Britannia. Bet your relatives who fought in the World Wars are looking at you from the heavens full of pride.

Being in the private sector, you will be aware of contracts. Say those buying into your enterprise decide to rip them up. Which way forward? Do tell. This is about contractual obligations. Ignore them for me and I will employ you but not pay. Equal rights.
.

Oh dear oh dear

"Rolling in the gutter " what a cheek

how dare YOU suggest that because I am self employed I am advocating discomfort for ANYONE
I suggest you stop writing so many empty words and try a little bit of empathy for once..........

The danger with making assumptions is that you really have no idea of peoples circumstances or idea of how other people live !

Equal rights indeed........ I guess that means that those of us who also pay tax and NI get nothing if we are ill whereas some folk get paid ?
AAAAH you will say, you choose to do what you do , and being a musician must be so rewarding etc etc
yes it is ........ but like I said , its hard to have empathy at times even with people whom you know work very hard (like teachers for example ) and you know wouldn't really do anything to support you !

as for contracts, if one is a sole trader and someone breaks your contract then you really just have to put it down to experience , its far to expensive and time consuming to do anything else !