The Left: Moribund.

[amateur51]

Like it is now, you mean? ON what planet are you living?! I accept that there are times when housing can be a wealth creator, albeit not only for a tiny monirity as you suggest, but those times are certainly not now!

To take an example, I used to work for an organisation funded by income from a mixed portfolio of property in London and equities. A decade at a time it was possible to say that property generated more income than equities or vice versa. But over 120 years it was pretty much even-stevens.

It only becomes an issue if you have to sell.

[Mandryka]

Please good people.

This is another Mandy wind-up

Motives unknown

Save your sanity & move on.

Amateur_51, I know you automatically assume that my political posts are 'wind-ups' are you put it, but this has never been (and will never be) the case.

All I was attempting to do was articulate my thoughts on the proposed day of action and the general malaise that has afflicted the Left in Britain and to start a civilised debate on that very subject. I do actually value the opinions of many people on this forum (yourself included most of the time, btw) and I'm pleased to see that most of us seem to have kept it polite (can't say for sure, though - I'm responding to your post immediately, because I immediately want to refute your accusation).

With all due respect, I sometimes think that you condemn yourself to seeing the world through the fish-eye lens of someone domiciled in N2 who doesn't get out and about much outside his own corner of the capital - if you did, and were prepared to engage with people who don't automatically toe the 'North London Left' party line, you might gain a wider perspective on how - and why - people think as they do; and, incidentally, why your own brand of Leftism has been in retreat (outside North London, of course) for a couple of generations now.

Apologies if the above sounds peremptory, as I do enjoy your contributions to this forum (and I'm often amused by your own wind-ups!:)) but on this one occasion, I think your comments are (to use a word I try not to use) inappropriate.

[Lateralthinking1]

To my mind, the most horribly meaningful post today has been Calum's on the Westminster thread. To answer a few questions asked of me on this one from people with two out of three modern stripes on their flag:

- "Please save my Mum's pension" - Actually, I didn't see the person carrying it. It was far too big for a toddler. I think it was probably an adult or two. The kinds who might have a job at the local paper shop and recognise that the mother's pension is likely to be a friend rather than an enemy to them, although officially they are in the private sector.

- What right have I to ask "x, y and z"? This from someone who provides detailed answers while knowing my questions weren't asked of him. How modern is this in the topsy-turvy world of "let everyone discuss everything on a mobile in a train, including the state of their underwear and loans to other family members", but woe betide anyone "invading" their privacy?

It is perverse. That is what it is. It wasn't as if my questions were a requirement of Government. The census or something. In fact, what one notices is that people are inclined to tolerate force, either by the law or via manipulation through advertising. To be asked a question on the other hand, with choice about whether to answer it, knowing that the question is actually about whether political statements will be supported by evidence. That is an "affront".

Be very careful people. The system is working its mind games effectively on your thoughts and into your perspectives. You end up frowning on democratic approaches and seeing them as terribly wrong. At the same time, you are having sex on a bus with the credit card falling out of your jacket and yet getting hot under the collar if a mate asks innocuously for your e-mail address.

[ahinton]

To take an example, I used to work for an organisation funded by income from a mixed portfolio of property in London and equities. A decade at a time it was possible to say that property generated more income than equities or vice versa. But over 120 years it was pretty much even-stevens.

It only becomes an issue if you have to sell.

That's absolutely correct; likewise, capital gains tax is only an issue when one has to sell.

[ahinton]

Amateur_51, I know you automatically assume that my political posts are 'wind-ups' are you put it, but this has never been (and will never be) the case.

All I was attempting to do was articulate my thoughts on the proposed day of action and the general malaise that has afflicted the Left in Britain and to start a civilised debate on that very subject. I do actually value the opinions of many people on this forum (yourself included most of the time, btw) and I'm pleased to see that most of us seem to have kept it polite (can't say for sure, though - I'm responding to your post immediately, because I immediately want to refute your accusation).

With all due respect, I sometimes think that you condemn yourself to seeing the world through the fish-eye lens of someone domiciled in N2 who doesn't get out and about much outside his own corner of the capital - if you did, and were prepared to engage with people who don't automatically toe the 'North London Left' party line, you might gain a wider perspective on how - and why - people think as they do; and, incidentally, why your own brand of Leftism has been in retreat (outside North London, of course) for a couple of generations now.

Apologies if the above sounds peremptory, as I do enjoy your contributions to this forum (and I'm often amused by your own wind-ups!:)) but on this one occasion, I think your comments are (to use a word I try not to use) inappropriate.

I must admit that I didn't take it as a wind-up either, as is presumably obvious from the first response to it in this thread.

[amateur51]

Amateur_51, I know you automatically assume that my political posts are 'wind-ups' are you put it, but this has never been (and will never be) the case.

All I was attempting to do was articulate my thoughts on the proposed day of action and the general malaise that has afflicted the Left in Britain and to start a civilised debate on that very subject. I do actually value the opinions of many people on this forum (yourself included most of the time, btw) and I'm pleased to see that most of us seem to have kept it polite (can't say for sure, though - I'm responding to your post immediately, because I immediately want to refute your accusation).

With all due respect, I sometimes think that you condemn yourself to seeing the world through the fish-eye lens of someone domiciled in N2 who doesn't get out and about much outside his own corner of the capital - if you did, and were prepared to engage with people who don't automatically toe the 'North London Left' party line, you might gain a wider perspective on how - and why - people think as they do; and, incidentally, why your own brand of Leftism has been in retreat (outside North London, of course) for a couple of generations now.

Apologies if the above sounds peremptory, as I do enjoy your contributions to this forum (and I'm often amused by your own wind-ups!:)) but on this one occasion, I think your comments are (to use a word I try not to use) inappropriate.

Dear Mand-butter-not melting-ryka!

You do love to make assumptions about me & other members whereas my summary of this post as a wind-up is plainly spot-on - there's fur & fevvers a-flying everywhere. At least one other, wiser, member has seen through this post

I do get outside N2 - in fact I go to NW2 every night to go to bed but thanks for your concern

[Mandryka]

Some very interesting comments here (I'm ignoring all the blood-letting). I have to admit to being amused when people attack capitalism on the ground that it is a manifestly unfair system (which, of course, it is - though less unfair than the feudalism that preceded it and MUCh less unfair than the communism that attempted to succeed it). Say what you will about it, it is the only system that has delivered rising living standards, economic empowerment of the many and, yes, democracy.

It isn't a perfect system, by any means, but it is manifestly LESS IMPERFECT than any other system that's been tried. If you disagree, would you care to name me one country that has prospered under a period of sustained socialist/communist rule (and, please, don't make me laugh by answering: Cuba)?

As to the proposed day of action....I was talking to some FE teachers yesterday (from a Humanities Department - aren't Arts people supposed to be the most militant among teachers) and they all said that, while they were furious about what was going to happen to their pensions and had no sympathy with the government, they saw 'absolutely no point' in going out on strike, as the strike would (in their words) 'achieve nothing.' Besides which, with Christmas ahead and families to support, they just couldn't afford to go on strike. As one of them put it to me: 'I've got a family - I can't afford to have principles.' Perhaps unsurprisingly, all of these teachers had been in their teens/twenties during the 1984-85 Miners strike. 'I learned through that that striking achieves nothing', one of them said.

I think their feelings are generally shared by most of the population: outrage, overwhelmed by a sense of 'mustn't grumble.'

[Lateralthinking1]

The mother, father and child theory of party politics and the strange cases of Plaid Cymru and the SNP.

There was the father and the mother. The Americans called them Republican and Democrat. Here they were Conservative and Labour. They were distinguishable but each had some of the other's traits. In Britain, the parents had a child. It was originally called a Liberal and still has roughly that name. It had some of the traits of each parent and some of its own. Some thought that it had more intelligence than either of the parents. However, the parents were generally supported by adults obviously.

It seemed that this would always be the way. Then one day, just as the parents were becoming less able and less popular, little Liberal had his/her day. A bit of power but it required siding with one of the parents. Logistically, it aligned with father although sentimentally it had some attachments to mother. To a lot of peoples' bewilderment, it then became virtually indistinguishable from the father. Was it, people wondered, because of its traits towards compliance or simply a feeling of being overwhelmed?

This I would suggest is a story about something more than Britain in 2011. It says much about the delicate position of any third party and probably so whether it is in the centre ground or not. There will be a time when its support is such that it has to do deals and when consequently, even somewhat ironically, it can be crushed. More than anything else, I would suggest that it is this phenomenon that is the problem for the real left. How can you succeed as a third party? It looks to many impossible.

But first, why would the left want a third party? Well, it is ok if you can maintain the illusion that the mother and the father are very distinct, oppositional even, and that one represents the child's interests. This was precisely what served us so effectively for a number of years in the last century. But the truth of it is that while mother and father are different, with some similarities, they are more similar than many want to acknowledge. They work together. For goodness sakes, theirs is a union. No problem with that in theory but it gets trickier if a different parent or parents are wanted. Wanted because the child - or children generally - feel that while they still have power, they've lost touch. Is there an alternative way to irritating sleepovers or running amok?

So to alternative exhibits A and B. Plaid Cymru and particularly the SNP. These are the children who became one of the parents. They showed that it could be done. What then is it that made them different? What would a new left party learn from their successes that eludes the Greens and Respect, UKIP and the English Democrats, and the Lib Dems obviously? Find the answers to that question and all is not lost. Footnote: one notes that each is still engaged in fighting for independence but meaning what?

[amateur51]

It isn't a perfect system, by any means, but it is manifestly LESS IMPERFECT than any other system that's been tried. If you disagree, would you care to name me one country that has prospered under a period of sustained socialist/communist rule (and, please, don't make me laugh by answering: Cuba)?
'

How's Kerala doing these days?

[Mandryka]

Kerala's economy depends on emigrants working in foreign countries (mainly in the Persian Gulf countries such as United Arab Emirates or Saudi Arabia) and remittances annually contribute more than a fifth of GSDP.[11][12][13] As of 2008, the Gulf countries altogether have a Keralite population of more than 2.5 million, who send home annually a sum of USD 6.81 billion,[91] which is more than 15.13% of Remittance to India in 2008.


....partly answers your question.


But, as by your own admittance you never travel outside Willesden, how would you know?

[amateur51]

Kerala's economy depends on emigrants working in foreign countries (mainly in the Persian Gulf countries such as United Arab Emirates or Saudi Arabia) and remittances annually contribute more than a fifth of GSDP.[11][12][13] As of 2008, the Gulf countries altogether have a Keralite population of more than 2.5 million, who send home annually a sum of USD 6.81 billion,[91] which is more than 15.13% of Remittance to India in 2008.


....partly answers your question.


But, as by your own admittance you never travel outside Willesden, how would you know?

Oh the sound of changing goalposts again.

And I was in Lambeth on Thursday evening

Later: and due to be in Westminster this very afternoon

[Lateralthinking1]

In case anyone points out that the Liberals were here before Labour, can I just say that the child that was born was a reincarnation of one his grandparents. Actually I was myself. Thanks.

[french frank]

In case anyone points out that the Liberals were here before Labour, can I just say that the child that was born was a reincarnation of one his grandparents. Actually I was myself. Thanks.

I had almost pre-empted you there, Lat, but thought better of entering the fray

[teamsaint]

Originally Posted by teamsaint
Reorganise land ownership so that it benefits all of us, and not the wealthy landed and big corporations.

Such ownership cannot be substantially reorganised without legalised theft - and who is going to vote for the legalisation of what is currently regarded as criminal?


I'd vote for it.
The current landownership mostly derives from organised theft way back when.

Doing nothing seems to be a preferred option for many on here.(EG Ahinton's thoughts about public transport)

As for Ahintons rather patronising question about which planet i am living on, well I am living on the one facing economic meltdown caused by banks and money markets, where workers in europe are constantly having what little they have taken away from them, and where the very few enjoy the benefits of our planet's bounty, at the expense of the many, supported by an apathetic but self interested upper middle class.

At least I was when I last looked, round about 10 am.

[Mandryka]

Fascinating that your initial contribution to this thread accuses me of a 'wind-up', when ALL of your subsequent contributions could be thus described - including your response to a very civilised and courteous 'word in your ear' from yours truly.

Pot, kettle, black, methinks, me old tangerine. :)

What moving goalposts? I thought you could derive the inference from the extract I quoted: Keralach's economy depends on the contributions of its economicaly exiled sons and daughters who must go out into the big, bad (but rich) capitalist world in order to send money home.

And I think you'll find if you care to re-read my posts (go on, you know you've nothing else to do :)) that the only member I make assumption about is your good self: but they're safe assumptions and their validity is always borne out by your subsequent behaviour.

Honestly, am, if any playwright dared put you on a public stage, he'd be savaged by the critics for creating a 'homophobic caricature' - which should give you some pause for thought.

Dear Mand-butter-not melting-ryka!

You do love to make assumptions about me & other members whereas my summary of this post as a wind-up is plainly spot-on - there's fur & fevvers a-flying everywhere. At least one other, wiser, member has seen through this post

I do get outside N2 - in fact I go to NW2 every night to go to bed but thanks for your concern