The Left: Moribund.

[teamsaint]

I agree with number 28. It includes me too. Funnily enough, the need for everyone to make sacrifices is exactly what Cameron, Osborne and the increasingly sinister-behind-blandness Alexander say is necessary. They also argue for exactly the opposite!

oh yes, the sacrifices and changes need to be everyone. The 400 wealthiest americans would be a good place to start, since they have plenty of dcope for financial sacrifice.
Dont think Zippy George and Bungle (or whatever the cabinet ministers names are) see it that way. Think they see this whole thing as a way of clearing the airports of the unwashed at holiday time.

[ahinton]

Eine - Great news. Let's hope it is just the first step. I would like to see six separate weeks of strikes - full weeks - between now and the end of the financial year. One announcement but no advance warning of the individual dates. People to be advised the evening before each one, hence no contingencies. This will place huge financial pressures on some. However, the message would be "strike on as many weeks as you can". I am in no doubt whatsoever that the foregoing of a holiday for a couple of years in many cases or something like a decision not to buy electrical goods for that period would be a very small price to pay.

We also need the unions to reach out to private sector workers and the unemployed. I loved the poster from one demonstrator that said "Don't take my Mum's pension anyway". Let's get rid of the artificial distinctions for once and for all. Adverts during the X Factor to point out that there are public sector workers in a very high number of families. What they manage to retain stands a better chance of helping members of those families too. The alternative is that it goes to the very well off.

It also needs to be backed up by the urging of special support for the vulnerable and the elderly. Union members need to be seen as helping those during the strikes. It really isn't rocket science to get this sorted out - Lat.

And when those strikes have failed to achieve the action for which they were called, what would you like to see next?

[amateur51]

And when those strikes have failed to achieve the action for which they were called, what would you like to see next?

Oh the meteorite collision will sort that out!

Please! Enough already!

[scottycelt]

'I loved the poster from one demonstrator that said "Don't take my Mum's pension anyway".'

On the contrary, I find that utterly appalling ... simply exploiting kiddies for political propaganda purposes, which is a favourite tactic of both Right and Left ... yuk!

[ahinton]

How many holidays did you have this year? I had a long weekend in Devon in late October.

Three - and I worked through each of them for part of the time

How many cars are there in your household? In mine, there are none.

One.

Do you have Sky TV, a dishwasher, a freezer, unnecessary annual subscriptions, two-wheeled vehicles, a DVD player, expensive musical instruments or sports equipment? I don't have any of these things.

Of these, no Sky TV, one dishwasher, one fridge-freezer, no unnecessary annual subscriptions, no two-wheeled vehicles, one DVD player, one grand piano (a second one is currently undergoing extensive repair) and no sports equipment.

Do you have more than one computer? I don't.

Yes - one desktop and one laptop.

How many mobile phones? I have none.

One.

Do you have children who are being funded to attend private schools? Do you have private medical insurance? I don't.

I have no children at all and never have had any. I do have private medical insurance.

What is your capability for downsizing? What percentage of your mortgage do you need to pay off?

Downsizing what?

Let's have the facts please. The reality rather than the fantasy. The long-term view rather than the short-term propaganda.

I know that these statements and questions were not specifically being addressed to me, but in any case whose business is any of this and what difference to anything does any of it make?

[ahinton]

Oh the meteorite collision will sort that out!

Really? How? And, perhaps rather more importantly, who's going to pay for that collision and with whose money?(!)

[ahinton]

Fighting amongst ourselves, (employed /self employed,state/private, retired/working etc) is EXACTLY what the powerful manipulative elites want.

Is it? Well, I'm self-employed and always have been (no one but I could be daft enough to employ me as a matter of choice), but I'm not fighting anyone, so I must be a grave disappointment to those powerful manipulative élites - or at least I would be if any of them even noticed my existence...

The current peverted, corrupted version of capitalism run by and for the markets will lead only to impoverishment for most of us.

Probably so, especially if it worsens uncontrollably - but that should be a wake-up call for its thoroughgoing reform rather than for its overthrow, particularly as there's no other system ready and waiting to take its place globally.

In my humble opinion, the west needs to decide to lower its standard of living, and learn to live within its, and the planets, means.

In my equally humble one, I don't; it needs instead to organise it rationally so that living within means doesn't have to mean lowering living standards.

[Frances_iom]

I know that these statements and questions were not specifically being addressed to me, but in any case whose business is any of this and what difference to anything does any of it make?

very little - a regular poster, whose hobby it seem,s is breeding hares for release on these boards ,wishes to see us return to the days of yore - commonly called the fifties - probably complete with ration books, currency controls, standing room only on the Blackpool trains etc, when all knew their place in life and the poor were grateful for NHS concentrated orange juice.

[ahinton]

Mandy don't know a Lord from a Wiscount neither, do he?!

That one wasn't lost om me either but I preferred to ignore it! I've long since thought, though, that he was more keen on dropping the "Stansgate" name lest it be seen by some as yet another offshoot of Watergate...

[Nick Armstrong]

I think the motives are known and clear: their avatar is Ayn Rand. Hence the statement that there is no alternative to capitalism, whatever that means.

Hello, I'm new.

Like your style, bumfluff

Thrice welcome and don't hold back

[teamsaint]

Is it? Well, I'm self-employed and always have been (no one but I could be daft enough to employ me as a matter of choice), but I'm not fighting anyone, so I must be a grave disappointment to those powerful manipulative élites - or at least I would be if any of them even noticed my existence...


Probably so, especially if it worsens uncontrollably - but that should be a wake-up call for its thoroughgoing reform rather than for its overthrow, particularly as there's no other system ready and waiting to take its place globally.


In my equally humble one, I don't; it needs instead to organise it rationally so that living within means doesn't have to mean lowering living standards.

I was self employed for 20 years. What's your point? I see people everywhere arguing about private sector workers paying for state sector pensions , and other groups fighting about other issues.

If you don't think our society has a problem with over exploiting resources, or of ludicrous wealth and income inequalities, then we are ok, aren't we?

Incidentally, I agree that reorganizing our economy to reduce the need for lowered living standards is part of a solution.
Lets see: reorganise finance so that it benefits workers rather than capitalists.
Reorganise land ownership so that it benefits all of us, and not the wealthy landed and big corporations.
Reorganise transport so that we dont get told to aspire to huge private vehicles, and get around cheaply and reliably on public transport(not always, but as part of a solution)
Reorganise housing so that its not a wealth creator for a tiny minority.

[amateur51]

Really? How? And, perhaps rather more importantly, who's going to pay for that collision and with whose money?(!)

Silly twisted boy, Moriarty!

After 1 minute ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGK6q1pOmzs

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

well since the left can not successfully define itself nor organise a skin for a rice pudding the question at the OP is perhaps without meaningful reference ...

Thatcherism did move everyone to the right but did nothing much to resolve the tensions in the right between eg the grocer, the squire, and the corporate banker .... now the corporate banker can see the right policies irrespective of apparent label and supported NuLab; the grocer never got past the employment acts and the squire never got past the common Market .... are there any working class Tories left in the Garnett mould?

the coalition is a government of the City, founded in a deep apprehension promulgated by King & MacDonald, but close to the sympathies of the public school boys and their chums in the trading rooms and front offices of the banks [the back rooms only have machines and clerks]

at one very basic level the problem is not about any ism at all but a major criminal activity, a ponzi fraud in which finance lent the citizen money to invest in an asset the price of which was rising because of the money being lent to invest in the asset

there is a deep intellectual and moral dishonesty at the heart of our societies in the West .....

[teamsaint]

agree with C de J

If you really want to see what is going on in the world at present, I suggest looking at outcomes.
Everywhere, its essentially a neo con agenda.
Austerity measures(hitting the poor) government being stripped back. Wages and pensions reduced. Public services slaughtered.
NhS being privatised.

And what is being saved? the banks ,big business, Big engineering (which is where all the public spending is going).

We need to wake up before its too late.........

I would love to see the city and the EU bureaucrats being subjected to austerity measures...but sadly these measures are for the poor people who caused the problems by purchasing big TVs on personal loans, and by recklessly calling on government services after conrtibuting through tax payments.

[ahinton]

I was self employed for 20 years. What's your point? I see people everywhere arguing about private sector workers paying for state sector pensions , and other groups fighting about other issues.

My point about my own self-employed status was solely in response to your reference to the self-employed in a list of those whom you or others accuse of "fighting"; I take your point that some people are fighting about other people's pensions and pension rights, but I'm not "fighting" anyone, as I stated above.

If you don't think our society has a problem with over exploiting resources, or of ludicrous wealth and income inequalities, then we are ok, aren't we?

I don't think that what I might think would or could make any difference to facts, but that's not the point here, since I did not claim that certain resources are not problematically over-exploited or that there are no such inequalities. The problem with resource exploitation - at least, for example, where energy is concerned - is that there remains too much exploitation of the wrong resources and that this is unsustainable. As to wealth and income inequalities, nothing can be done to get rid of these, although a few things can be done to reduce them; were the Benn-type ideas of the 70s referred to earlier here put into practice, any consequent reduction of such inequalities would come at the unacceptable price of almost everyone becoming relatively poor - and, even then, those sufficiently determined to escape these srictures will seek to do so and at least some will succeed.

Lets see: reorganise finance so that it benefits workers rather than capitalists.

This over-simplistic aim fails to recognise that it is perfectly possible for workers to be capitalists and that many millions of them are!

Reorganise land ownership so that it benefits all of us, and not the wealthy landed and big corporations.

Such ownership cannot be substantially reorganised without legalised theft - and who is going to vote for the legalisation of what is currently regarded as criminal?

Reorganise transport so that we dont get told to aspire to huge private vehicles, and get around cheaply and reliably on public transport(not always, but as part of a solution)

We don't all aspire to such vehicales in the first place and there's no way that we can "get around cheaply" on public transport unless someone, be it the schemers at Ryanair and the like or local and national governments, subsidises it heavily; apart from running costs and maintenance of the highways and rail networks, who's going to pay for the replacement of worn-out planes, trains, coaches, taxis, etc. and with whose money? I'm all for viable public transport, but you have only to consider the raft of complainants about the proposed new not-so-very-high-speed rail link between London and Birmingham and the cost of its construction to realise that it comes at aa very high price and attracts at least as much widespread protest as "huge private vehicles" do; it's just that some people think that it's OK to complain about certain types of privately owned vehicle just because they're privately owned, while others complain about the cost and other consequences of a proposed new public transport facility.

Reorganise housing so that its not a wealth creator for a tiny minority.

Like it is now, you mean? On what planet are you living?! I accept that there are times when housing can be a wealth creator, albeit not only for a tiny monirity as you suggest, but those times are certainly not now!