The Left: Moribund.

[Mandryka]

I'm not sure what "leftist" means anymore anyway
it did used to have a meaning
but
just seems to be a general term of abuse rather than having any solid meaning

It is certainly a term of abuse in America, which is where (I think) the term derives.

But I think it is a warranted term of abuse, for the reaons I outlined in my OP: the Left whinges, it protests, it gets angry and bangs its fist upon the table. But when you ask it what its solutions are....it hasn't got any.

Actually, tbf, there have been some decent left wing analyses of our present predicament: but the left has never had a problem anlaysying things - it's when it comes to what to do with those analyses that it comes a cropper.

So far, on this thread, we've had all the usual old chestnuts trotted out: strikes, direct action, and the Benn Cure-All For Industrial Ills. But they all failed before (or were never tried, because everyone knew they would fail). What on earth makes anyone think they wouldnt' fail again?

[amateur51]

the country in question is a poor country; socialism, even today, has a currency in poor countries that it does not have in rich countries; but if those poor countries become rich, they'll ditch socialism quicker than a prawn leaping off a hot plate. :)

I understand Mandy - you can't find any evidence for your propostion - fairy nuff!

As to your being a homOphobic caricature....all I can say, m'dear, is try listening to yourself! :)

I understand Mandy - you can't provide any evidence for your proposition - fairy nuff!

Care for three-in-a-row?

[Mandryka]

I understand Mandy - you can't find any evidence for your propostion - fairy nuff!

I understand Mandy - you can't provide any evidence for your proposition - fairy nuff!

Care for three-in-a-row?

Nope - I'm afraid you're not understanding my arguments because you don't want to understand them - or do anything that might force you to emerge from the carapace (look it up) of outmoded thinking that grew over you in your....ahem...'formative' years.

[Anna]

I was harsh in what I said to Lat, I withdraw that, I have no wish to knock a man when he is down and out and hurting

[amateur51]

Nope - I'm afraid you're not understanding my arguments because you don't want to understand them - or do anything that might force you to emerge from the carapace (look it up) of outmoded thinking that grew over you in your....ahem...'formative' years.

If I have a carapace then I go through a process of ecdysis (look it up) which is how I change and grow

As far as I'm concerned this correspondence is now at a close

[scottycelt]

Well, whilst I hope that I am entitled to rejoice in not being one of those - and whilst I am not "of the Left" per se - I am not at all comfortable with the implication that "unthinking politically-correct propagandist" must, by definition (whose?), also be "Leftist".

Okay then, 'unthinking rightist propagandist claptrap' as well ... there's certainly plenty of that ... though that could hardly be described as 'politically-correct'.?

You are certainly entitled to rejoice in your innocence if you must, ahinton ... I'm all for that ... though I don't think I 'implied' anything really.

I simply expressed a very clear opinion which probably, in hindsight, may have been most unforgivably naive and unwise ...

[Mandryka]

If I have a carapace then I go through a process of ecdysis (look it up) which is how I change and grow

As far as I'm concerned this correspondence is now at a close

Is that a pink towel I see being flung to the asphalt?

Ah, well, nice waltzin' with you, am_51; no hard feelings, me ol' banana. :)

[Pilchardman]

Would all those going on strike do the same to support those of us with NO company pension, sick pay or paid holidays ?

hummmm

I wonder

Why assume they wouldn't? Let's start from a point where basic human solidarity is a given, is expected. Not where it is doubted at every turn.

I am self employed, and I support the strike, and wish them every success. Why wouldn't I?

[Flosshilde]

Capitalism might get us out of this mess but the system which now reigns is a perversion of capitalism.

Perversion, or an inevitable development in the West? Having offloaded the bulk of manufacturing - & not just manufacturing - to the East, what's left for the West but the so-called 'financial services', controlled by a small number of very large organisations, with people at the top who seem to have no inbuilt or imposed control? At least with manufacturing you had to produced something that people wanted to buy. With the present system, the buying & selling is conducted by a very small group of people - often the same people buy and sell - but the impact they have is widespread & affects us all. Are we beginning to see the 'end of history' of capitalism, just as the 90s saw, supposedly, the 'end of history' in relation to communism?

[ahinton]

I'm not sure what "leftist" means anymore anyway
it did used to have a meaning
but
just seems to be a general term of abuse rather than having any solid meaning

Agreed on both counts!

[ahinton]

Okay then, 'unthinking rightist propagandist claptrap' as well ... there's certainly plenty of that ... though that could hardly be described as 'politically-correct'.?

You are certainly entitled to rejoice in your innocence if you must, ahinton ... I'm all for that

Be that as it may or may not, that was not what I was writing about, as you should be able to see for yourself if you re-read what I did write...

[onemarathon]

Why assume they wouldn't? Let's start from a point where basic human solidarity is a given, is expected. Not where it is doubted at every turn.

I am self employed, and I support the strike, and wish them every success. Why wouldn't I?

But that's the thing. I'm not affected by the pension reforms. So why should I care? The strikes are only going to cause me some inconvenience - so by and large I am against it.

It's the same for the argument that we need to foster a more equal society. For goodness sake why? As long as I'm not in the bottom quartile - it doesn't affect me or my family. So why should I alter my standard of living slightly to help someone else? It doesn't seem rational to me. Even if we accept that greater inequality is a direct cause of civil disobedience like rioting etc...well we've seen how it's possible to take measures to protect one's property against such actions through the use of gated communities etc in the USA, Latin America, etc.

I'd like to know compelling reasons to push for greater wealth equality in society that would benefit the top 20% of earners in the same way as it would benefit the lowest quintile. At the moment, it seems that with a more equal society, the lowest quintile would benefit disproportionately, while the top quintile would benefit less or in some cases stand to lose greater - some may argue that this is equitable/fair but if we assume that I and most people only look out for their own self-interest, how can we be convinced otherwise?

[ahinton]

Perversion, or an inevitable development in the West? Having offloaded the bulk of manufacturing - & not just manufacturing - to the East, what's left for the West but the so-called 'financial services', controlled by a small number of very large organisations, with people at the top who seem to have no inbuilt or imposed control? At least with manufacturing you had to produced something that people wanted to buy. With the present system, the buying & selling is conducted by a very small group of people - often the same people buy and sell - but the impact they have is widespread & affects us all. Are we beginning to see the 'end of history' of capitalism, just as the 90s saw, supposedly, the 'end of history' in relation to communism?

I very much doubt it, if for no better reason than that those who control all that you imply that they control (if indeed they actually do so to the extent that you suggest) have probably already ensured otherwise.

[Frances_iom]

.. but if we assume that I and most people only look out for their own self-interest, how can we be convinced otherwise?

with difficulty it seems based on any 'moral' or ethical arguments - however the benefits of the society depend on your 'class' holding and wielding enough force to prevent forcible expropriation - you need roads maintained, your dead buried, rubbish removed, power, water etc to be provided - also that imports can be maintained - unequal societies need to spend an increasing amount of their wealth on maintaining this unequal distribution which starts to impose significant restrictions on personal freedom in that life outside the wall is dangerous - the cost of this control of force eventually (sometimes more quickly than forseen) destroys the system - more equitable societies (Scandinavia is generally given as an example) generally rank higher on most social measures of happiness

[Pilchardman]

But that's the thing. I'm not affected by the pension reforms. So why should I care?

Because why should anyone stand in solidarity with you when you need it, then?