A million to march on Westminster!

[mangerton]

Just got my reminder of this governments policy on reducing not just pensions, but pensioners (not that I actually am one yet, nor expect to be for a decade or so if I can help it). My 20% reduced Winter Fuel Payment has been credited to my current account. An interesting way of compensating for rocketing fuel prices, what!? Knocking £50 off the payment should really help.

That's the tory way. Hit the weak and those who can't fight back. They really are a despicable bunch.

I was 60 in March, but won't get the heating allowance until winter next year.

[Lateralthinking1]

Bryn - Yours is a very good point. We are for ever being told that people are living longer. However, if you were to trawl through all of the threads this year starting with the word "Dead", you will find that a surprisingly high number are dead before the ages of 66 and 68 and many go not much longer afterwards. I have doubts about the figures presented on this topic. I have no doubt that the numbers living longer are much higher than they were. It is not just the improvements in medical science. The population is higher for many reasons. That is here and across the world. But it is being "dealt with" now and it is shocking what this means.

Whereas in the past, people often did die through natural causes, I cannot recall a time in history when policies have been deliberately introduced to bring the numbers of elderly down. People will be worked into the grave or, if they don't have jobs, die from poverty. Hitler who I now see genuinely as very marginally more humane, if dangerous and crackers, may have believed in "Survival of the Fittest" but had no intentions so far as I am aware of clearing out the elderly. I am not sure quite what the elderly equivalent is of infanticide but I believe strongly that this is evident in the personal psychology of some Ministers involved. To me, the tolerance I am seeing even in friends is precisely the same as that following Weimar in Germany. It churns my stomach.

The societal non-structures they are actively promoting enforces the young into similar outlooks, whether they wish for it or not or even know what is going on. There is absolutely no question that those who are 44 or 51 or 58 who have had life easy, and always will do, have no understanding of old age unless they have particularly acute sensitivities. Any doctor would confirm that the differences to the human body every ten years from the age of 60 are acute even in the healthy. Many of us see that very clearly anyway. I would see these politicians and their most compliant officials as having psychotic characteristics. I feel that in mine and others' natural responses to them. The contrast with Hindu, Muslim and Mediterranean ethics couldn't be more stark. - Lat.

[mangerton]

Whereas in the past, people often did die through natural causes, I cannot recall a time in history when policies have been deliberately introduced to bring the numbers of elderly down. People will be worked into the grave or, if they don't have jobs, die from poverty. Hitler who I now see genuinely as very marginally more humane, if dangerous and crackers, may have believed in "Survival of the Fittest" but had no intentions so far as I am aware of clearing out the elderly. I am not sure quite what the elderly equivalent is of infanticide but I believe strongly that this is evident in the personal psychology of some Ministers involved.

Gerontocide? I'm sure your premise is correct, Lat. Cut the heating allowance, keep the pensions low, and hope that a lot of them will freeze to death. Saves money on pensions, and of course on the NHS.

My plan is to outsmart them by living as long as I possibly can.

[MrGongGong]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IKVj4l5GU4

[scottycelt]

Just got my reminder of this governments policy on reducing not just pensions, but pensioners (not that I actually am one yet, nor expect to be for a decade or so if I can help it). My 20% reduced Winter Fuel Payment has been credited to my current account. An interesting way of compensating for rocketing fuel prices, what!? Knocking £50 off the payment should really help.

Well, it was always understood (or should have been) that the £250 was a one-off ...

In any case, do you really NEED that extra £200 in your account, Bryn? Not that I'm complaining, believe me, every bit helps but, in all honesty, I'd much rather the Government (whether it's the evil Tories/Lib Dems or nice Labour) kept the bloody thing and doubled the fuel allowance they give to the genuinely needy among us.

in other words maybe only give it to those with an income under a certain amount?

[mangerton]

Well, it was always understood (or should have been) that the £250 was a one-off ...

In any case, do you really NEED that extra £200 in your account, Bryn? Not that I'm complaining, believe me, every bit helps but, in all honesty, I'd much rather the Government (whether the it's the evil Tories/Lib Dems or nice Labour) kept the bloody thing and doubled the fuel allowance they give to the genuinely needy among us.

in other words maybe only give it to those with an income under a certain amount?

Yes, that's a very good point, and there is much in what you say. Unfortunately, I see nothing in the records of any government, of whatever hue, which would make me believe they would do that.

We have to remember that we're all in this together, but that some are in it a lot more than others, and some aren't in it at all. This last group includes MPs, whose pensions have not been affected, and who get free travel, to name only two of their many perks.

[scottycelt]

Yes, that's a very good point, and there is much in what you say. Unfortunately, I see nothing in the records of any government, of whatever hue, which would make me believe they would do that.

We have to remember that we're all in this together, but that some are in it a lot more than others, and some aren't in it at all. This last group includes MPs, whose pensions have not been affected, and who get free travel, to name only two of their many perks.

I totally agree, mangerton!

If MPs public pensions are not affected by the cuts they damn well should be and it's a downright scandal if these are not!

There also should be no question of such well-off public (or private) servants being awarded anything 'free' at the taxpayers' expense, which is merely for personal use.

[Lateralthinking1]

On further enquiries, it appears that there might be greater distinctions than I realised between any new scheme and the current one. I have the poor old doctors' (!) union website to thank for informing me of the facts and the Civil Service pensions helpline for adding to them. For the sake of self-interest, I am not going into a lot of detail here. Suffice it to say that the Government seems to have different views about pensions accrued and pensions to be accrued from any proposed changes to the legislation.

What this means is that once again it is all on a knife edge. It will need watching them daily like a hawk to see what atrocious things they are about to do next. Key is whether there is scope for any damage limitation personally by taking certain specific legal and relevant actions in regard to entitlements as they stand. It is a case currently of standing to lose more but not the lot in some senses as I thought but I still wouldn't be surprised if it goes pear-shaped between now and then. It generally does.

I have been advised that the only sane way in these things is to expect the unexpected. However, I find myself under the current proposals in a slightly different category for now to the one I thought. It really is every man for himself in this climate, isn't it. It is truly horrible. One of the aspects is that it becomes increasingly difficult to align one's broad political philosophy - the moral rights and the wrongs of it - with what is in it or not for me Jim. That is very sad, I think, and leaves me with the very strong feeling that we are all being psychologically manipulated and heavily. It has never felt like this until recently.

[Lateralthinking1]

I love this - Dave, George and Maude's Achilles Heel..................

..........................................Women.

Female voters to boot the Tories and Lib Dems down a disused mineshaft at the next election.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/nov/24/pensions-action-womens-strike-unison

[Lateralthinking1]

.....yep, that's been a full half hour without any contributions whatsoever to Platform 3. It's a showstopper. They're finished!

[Simon]

In all the moaning from the left about pensions and deficits, their shame - and the reason that all these moans are there for all to see as sheer self-interest - is that there has been little said about the truly vulnerable in our society.

And who are they?

Not the retired pensioners with cars, several holidays a year and who eat out at least twice a week who get the unnecessary winter fuel payment, whcih as scotty says should go to the truly needy.

Not the teachers, who will all have excellent pensions, even though some may not be not quite as much as before.

Not the civil servants, who get every little expense back and nore besides and who still go on taxpayer funded jollies far too often.

Not the public sector incompetemts who are sacked and then get big payoffs.

Not the pointless leech-lawyers getting fat on yooman rites cases.

Not the councillors and MPs and MEPs and bureaucrats sucking the very lifeblood out of the country.

Not the immigrants who are coached in how to get here illegally and then claim every benefit going despite never having paid into the pot.

Not the financiers who earn more in a month than many do in a lifetime simply by juggling non-existent funds and betting away false futures.

Not the chattering pseudo-liberals in the arts world.

No, the truly needy don't get a look in from the left.

They are only helped by people who recognise where the real need is and despite a heavy workload, still find time to do something most weeks to alleviate their distress and suffering, and who, despite the difficulties caused by stupid laws that incompetent public sector employees hide behind, try to challenge the system.

The elderly mentally impaired are the country's real victims, the country's really needy and poor. They have hardly anybody to fight for them. They don't appear on TV or in the Guardian. Fisk et al don't bother about them - no PR mileage in it.

Clegg accuses the banks of racism - that's good for a headline or two. Accusing anyone of racism always works for the pesudo-liberals in the media. But he doesn't mention the elderly - mistreated, starved, dying of thirst in hospitals, so-called "care" homes and even in their own homes. He doesn't call for extra payment for the carers, so that at least we could employ carers who got the remuneration that they deserve.

And yet we still pretend to care. Every November, we still "remember" those - in many cases the husbands or boyfriends, long dead, of these frail, pathetic semi-skeletons crying softly all day and night in the corners of hospital wards or slumped in their own urine in nursing homes - who gave their lives for our freedoms. Our freedoms to strike and to be greedy and not to care about the truly vulnerable.

Our freedom, among other things, to pay in a net £25 million per day to the EU, to the benefit of Greeks, French, Irish, assorted lawyers and a great mass of corrupt or incompetent bueaucrats in Belgium and France.

Just 10 days' worth of that money could solve many of the problems for the EMI and could give 50,000 of the most vulnerable in our society some comfort in their last months.

So when I next see a striking teacher or civil servant, I shall be asking them if they really think that their selfishness is justified. And I shall be offering to take them with me when I next visit a care home, to show them how the forgotten people who are really in need have to survive.

[Bryn]

Well, it was always understood (or should have been) that the £250 was a one-off ...

In any case, do you really NEED that extra £200 in your account, Bryn? Not that I'm complaining, believe me, every bit helps but, in all honesty, I'd much rather the Government (whether it's the evil Tories/Lib Dems or nice Labour) kept the bloody thing and doubled the fuel allowance they give to the genuinely needy among us.

in other words maybe only give it to those with an income under a certain amount?

Since I am fortunate enough to remain fairly fit, and though not exactly well remunerated, still have a job, I personally could get through the winter without the Winter Fuel Payment. There are many, however, who are not so reasonably provided. For far too many it becomes a choice between food and heat. Were I to have to rely on the minimum state pension and pay rent, I too would be having to make such choices.

[PatrickOD]

Good idea scotty. But... the administration costs.... means testing.... you know what I mean?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/consumertips/8880480/How-to-donate-your-winter-fuel-allowance.html

[Lateralthinking1]

I think the issue here is about the next generations of pensioners and even those some way below that age. Let me put this to you. How do you feel about the survival chances of anyone in their late 40s or 50s - now or in the future, from the public or private sector - who is made redundant, or indeed is ill and hence has to leave work but is not officially disabled, has unmarketable skills, is in a climate of high unemployment, has no eligibility for benefits, is only ever likely to qualify for a benefit of £65 pw and will have to wait for any kind of pension until 66? Let me answer first. In many cases, we are not talking about care homes for those now aged 80 plus. Rather this is about people between 53 and 65 dying on the streets. Killed by the Government.

In every public sector case, they will have worked rather than slobbed around on the dole for decades. They will be people who in the main have been on average or low salaries. Almost all will be people who had the self-responsibility in their early twenties to think about their old age and take care of it. The very models, in fact, of what this bloody country said it wanted.

Now the bleat of the private sector is that some of their pensions went awry. Ardent capitalists every one of them, they want an uncharacteristic and highly selective socialism on pensions. The kind that runs everyone down to the lowest common denominator and mucks up efficient systems in the process. The gold plated pensions that they so bitterly resent - average in the Civil Service of less than £5,000 - were not absent from their lives by magic. They chose a different employment. They weren't forced into it. The public sector interviews were never only open to a chosen few. They shrugged their shoulders about the future. Perhaps they thought they would be forever young. They gambled on something else. They lost. And as the bad losers that they are, they now want to crucify others. I wish the best for most people but if I find that I'm on the end of that, I'd see the end of them happily. Every single one of them - and there will be a fair few reading this - should hang their heads in shame.

These are different times. What is being proposed may well have been proposed by Labour if they were in power. Miliband and Balls are noticeable by their half-heartedness. Not even that. It is quite pathetic. Actually, loathsome. MacMillan, Douglas-Home, Heath and Grimond would condemn what is taking place. Thatcher and Major would never have considered it. In fact, some of Margaret Thatcher's changes in the late 80s were beneficial. Maude is an absolute disgrace. I would say that he is the most evil, despicable, individual to have been in public service during my 48 years. I just hope and pray he has a fatal accident. Him then Mugabe.

A footnote - It is entirely predictable that among those who will have any sympathy for these arguments are sections of the present day elderly. This is a broad category of people. Those in need should accept their entitlements without guilt. The ones who are well off should decide what they want to do and not feel under pressure from others. This is a problem of post-war leadership and particularly the privileged sections of generations who never fought under attack. Their entire absence of humility, their remoteness from ordinary concerns and their non-rounded brutal instincts to pick fights with the average and the vulnerable has everything to do with the absence of constraints on them throughout their lives. They will only be reined in by moral force.

[PatrickOD]

Apologies - I had missed all of page 3 when I replied to scotty's #20..... it was NOT a senior moment, though God knows I'm entitled to one or two! Forget #28. In short, if you don't need the fuel allowance, give it away.