What makes you think you're not a racist?

[jean]

I don't think that's fair (or true). There is an argument to be made about the effects of and reasons for eliding "race" and "culture"...

But this is precisely the opposite of what is happening when people take the trouble to differentiate between "race" and "culture".

[Pilchardman]

I agree.

Now you're doing exactly what you accuse the multiculturalists of doing, and yourself confusing culture and race!

In fact, proffering cash or anything else with the left hand to a Hindu could be intended as an insult. I am sure most Hindus living in this society would be aware that most British people are not aware of this, and would therefore not interpret it as an insult, but there's no harm at all in informing yourself of the possible interpretation.

Indeed. That was the point I was trying to arrive at. I had come across a real life diversity seminar which left people thinking that all Asians will be offended by this. All Asians will not. Some may, but not all. The seminar did not make this clear. And as you rightly say, those who might potentially be offended will be well aware that no intended offence is generally meant.

You have quoted my second post using the example. I think I explained it better in an earlier post, which I assumed people has already read.

[Pilchardman]

But this is precisely the opposite of what is happening when people take the trouble to differentiate between "race" and "culture".

I'm not sure I follow your point. Can you expand?

[amateur51]

Apologies to pilchardman et al but I'm losing my connection a lot today and I've already 'lost' two lengthy posts so I'm going to write on Word & then transfer them. Also want to follow Lord Justice Leveson's Inquiry

[MrGongGong]

Sadly , given that people seem to be unable to separate many things (witness the "discussions" about 4:33" ) particularly "taste" and "quality" then separating race from culture is going to be impossible.
For some people, these ARE inseparable
for the Israeli government , culture, race and religion are completely inseparable and to suggest otherwise is very dangerous indeed

[Pilchardman]

for the Israeli government , culture, race and religion are completely inseparable and to suggest otherwise is very dangerous indeed

That's a very apposite example. Criticism of Israeli state policy, especially towards the Palestinians, is often decried as anti-Semitic.

[Pilchardman]

Apologies to pilchardman et al but I'm losing my connection a lot today and I've already 'lost' two lengthy posts so I'm going to write on Word & then transfer them. Also want to follow Lord Justice Leveson's Inquiry

Look forward to it.

I also have to be somewhere else for a while. :)

[jean]

I'm not sure I follow your point. Can you expand?

You seem to me to be saying that the use of the two different terms racism and multiculturalism is an indication of the conflation of the two ideas they represent. I'm saying the opposite is the case.

I'm at a disadvantage in that I was not present at the real life diversity seminar you mention which left people thinking that all Asians will be offended by [proffering cash or anything else with the left hand], but surely if it had been pointed out that this was a cultural rather than a racial matter, they could not have been confused?

In other words, if the terms racism and multiculturalism had been used, defined and discussed, the reasons for actually having the two terms would have been clear.

[jean]

That's a very apposite example. especially towards the Palestinians, is often decried as anti-Semitic.

I don't think it is apposite to this discussion, because Jewishness is both racial (insofar as that concept has any meaning) and cultural.

Criticism of Israeli state policy is neither cultural nor racial, but political.

It is wrong to regard such criticism as in itself antisemitic - but it is also wrong to say that antisemititic views could not be expressed in the course of it.

(Wouldn't it be better to give this argument a thread to itself, if it's really considered necessary to revisit it yet again?)

[MrGongGong]

I think this is very apposite
as the Israeli state constantly conflates Religion, Culture and Race
furthermore it claims an unique historical justification for this stance so that empathy towards others (for example the Genocide in Rwanda ) is off limits.

Which is (and it's sad that I have to say this but some people etc etc )NOT the same as condoning acts of terrorism (doh )

[jean]

What we have been talking about most recently on this thread is the use of the terms racism and multiculturalism, and whether the use of the terms indicates a conflation of the ideas they represent.

That's what I'm interested in discussing.

[John Skelton]

More, perhaps, the equation: criticism of cultural practices = racism, or the claim that people are defined by cultural practices (generally seen as 'otherness') rather than as social or political agents. The 'failure' of multiculturalism argument from the Right quickly shades into the traditional language of racism - swamping of an 'indigenous culture', mass immigration as a threat to identity, etc. For the Neoliberal Right multiculturalism is an opportunity: the development of new, niche, markets aimed at target 'others' (the 'other' of course can't be other in the sense of defined outside the or a market).

Israel is an interesting example in that it relies on an Idea of race, or racial identity, as a foundation claim: the Jewish State. It relies on racial distinctness, and on the 'right' of Jews to settle in Israel. Within that logic criticism of Israel becomes racism, since Israel = the Jewish State for the Jewish people = criticism of Israel = criticism of Jews. The grim irony is that involved here is the adoption / adaption of a racist definition of Jewishness whose consequences have, of course, been of the most terrible kind imaginable. http://inventionofthejewishpeople.com/

[Serial_Apologist]

More, perhaps, the equation: criticism of cultural practices = racism, or the claim that people are defined by cultural practices (generally seen as 'otherness') rather than as social or political agents. The 'failure' of multiculturalism argument from the Right quickly shades into the traditional language of racism - swamping of an 'indigenous culture', mass immigration as a threat to identity, etc. For the Neoliberal Right multiculturalism is an opportunity: the development of new, niche, markets aimed at target 'others' (the 'other' of course can't be other in the sense of defined outside the or a market).

Israel is an interesting example in that it relies on an Idea of race, or racial identity, as a foundation claim: the Jewish State. It relies on racial distinctness, and on the 'right' of Jews to settle in Israel. Within that logic criticism of Israel becomes racism, since Israel = the Jewish State for the Jewish people = criticism of Israel = criticism of Jews. The grim irony is that involved here is the adoption / adaption of a racist definition of Jewishness whose consequences have, of course, been of the most terrible kind imaginable. http://inventionofthejewishpeople.com/

Thanks John Skelton (and Pilchardman) for clarifying the issues and distinctions, for me, at any rate.

[jean]

More, perhaps, the equation: criticism of cultural practices = racism, or the claim that people are defined by cultural practices (generally seen as 'otherness') rather than as social or political agents.

But there exist cultural practices which we may wish to respect, and others (such as FGM) we might wish to reject, without in either case using the practices to define those whose cultures they are a part of, or attaching the practices erroneously to members of a race rather than of a cultural group.

To talk about cultural practices is not to deny to individuals the possibility of being, as individuals, social or political agents.

The 'failure' of multiculturalism argument from the Right quickly shades into the traditional language of racism - swamping of an 'indigenous culture', mass immigration as a threat to identity, etc.

I agree. What interests me is that 'racism' (with the '-ism' having a negative meaning, as in 'sexism' or 'ageism') is always pejorative, and nobody, not even a racist, wants to be identified as one. 'Multiculturalism' has no such necessary connotations, and is thus easier to attach oneself to or distance oneself from without attracting obloquy.

The argument that the Jews have no right historically or biologically to be considered a race is a different argument altogether.

[Pilchardman]

You seem to me to be saying that the use of the two different terms racism and multiculturalism is an indication of the conflation of the two ideas they represent. I'm saying the opposite is the case.

Well, I'm not really saying that. I'm saying that there is a bureaucratic orthodoxy which seeks to blur the distinction between race and culture, and which uses those two terms - race and culture - interchangeably, almost as synonyms. It is that tendency that I am calling Multiculturalism. (Not my term, but one that has long been in use in the way I describe).

Further, I am saying that Multiculturalism is a racist project, and one that suppresses freedom of speech and espouses moral relativism.