What makes you think you're not a racist?

[amateur51]

The next time you go out in London, Paris, Berlin, count the number of same-ethnicity couples (of any race) vs. mixed-ethnicity. The data isn’t going to be in peer-reviewed journals or on a Panorama programme!

It was included in the Census of 2001 and of 2011 so we'll get those results soon. I'd assumed that you were making an academic point backed up by these data. My mistake.

‘Life companion’ is a conscious decision, but is related to companionship (lack of loneliness), which has its roots in reproduction.

Can you explain this a bit further please? As a non-breeder (I'm gay) how can my 'conscious decision' have its roots in reproduction?

[amateur51]

I know homosexual men who prefer themselves to be referred to a queer and do not find it an insult, I don't think they are necessarily militant, they just like the expression, as do women who prefer lesbian rather than the all-encompassing gay. I think because they like to think of Sappho and Lesbos and keep their sexuality out of the predominently Gay expression which, after all, lumps women after men in the order of sexuality grouping

Right on, Sista!

[Anna]

Right on, Sista!

Oh, and while I am at it Ams. The Welsh are really racist. We paint on walls "Twll dîn pob Sais!" but that's only because ........... oh well, because, basically, they are crap at rugby!!

[ahinton]

Oh, and while I am at it Ams. The Welsh are really racist. We paint on walls "Twll dîn pob Sais!" but that's only because ........... oh well, because, basically, they are crap at rugby!!

I have never in my life met a racist Welsh person! - and I now live in rather close proximity to quite a few of them. Having moved into Herefordistan from Bath, I couldn't care less how good or bad the Bathonians or the Welsh (or, for that matter, anyone else) might be at rugby, be it union, league or any other variation thereon.

Anyway, I openly declare that I AM a racist. Pro the human race, that is.

[french frank]

Are you saying that racism can be excused on the grounds of old age, french frank?

No. I am saying I'm not sure that I would agree that an elderly man suggesting that a 'handshake' will put an act of racist abuse right is of itself racism. If a judge gives a lenient sentence to a man found guilty of a racial crime, does that make the judge himself a racist? I am aware that the word has gained added modern nuances and that in football this is a highly sensitive issue; therefore other people perceive things differently.

Should Blatter be allowed to occupy the position he holds, given especially the problem with racism in football? I don't have an opinion on the matter. In some quarters this is perceived to be the UK media stirring. I have no opinion on that either.

[Serial_Apologist]

I suppose that the last time I was ever a racist in any meaningful description was when, at the age of 15, a number of fellow schoolboys comandeered an unused store room and set it up as "The Jazz Hole". Among expensive equipment and the hoard of albums and EPs that effectively became our collective property during my last 3 years at that ****hole of a public school were the dozens and dozens of photos of jazz musicians sellotaped around the walls. My first reaction was, hey - they're nearly all black! The knowledge that many if not of course all the important innovators in jazz were black Americans was news to me! All my prejudices regarding black people and the automatic superiority I had assumed for the Euroclassical tradition of music melted away in an instant.

Today I am as comfortable in the company of black, Asian, or any ethnicity as I am my "own" race, for want of a better description. In the case of black people, whether of Caribbean, African, or British origin, possibly more so. My last girlfriend was black: a remarkable woman in every sense. Very militant black, she was on one of her two daughters' school governing bodies, and, as part of her self-chosen responsibilities, she had gone through the school library's stock of literature, weeding out all the books she couild find that portrayed non-white people in a demeaning light, and plonking them on the head's desk witrh the words, "What the hell are these doing on our kids' shelves?" There were only two problems in the relationship. If anybody was in a position to winkle out any remaining vestiges of racism in my personality, it was she. She never accused me of being a racist; yet she was fearful to the point of paranoia. When, one day, I took her by the hand as we were walking towards the local shops, she snatched hers away, saying, "If you wouldn't hold my hand when we were leaving your place earlier, because of what the neighbours might think, you most certainly can't hold my hand here!" I was utterly flabberghasted and speechless. Subsequent investigation on my part revealed that she was loath to have her friends and family know that she was going out with a white guy; indeed, within a week it became evident that she herself had a serious drink problem, and that was what led to the ending of the relationship.

Drink taken to excess has deleterious effects regardless of ethnicity. Why I should feel so well disposed towards those of different ethnicity from myself probably boils down to my being a bit of an outsider who has never fully identified with the white British population, of any class. Coming from a middle middle class background, I hated the emotional dishonesty, as well as the showcasing use to which my and my peers' parents put us, their offspring: a kind of reification in the "keeping up with the Joneses" sphere; much preferring the directness and emotional honesty I found among the working class, even though distanced from "working class culture". Among blacks one met on a casual basis in shops and among jazz muscians at gigs was and still is, amongst my generation, the emotional honesty, and a bubbling warmth and straightforwardness; this I also found among the pentecostal congregations at the weddings I attended of my cousin's three daughters - in each case to a smashing black guy - while almost envying them their simple beliefs. And slowly - in London at least - one finds blacks and those of other ethnicities, Japanese students for instance, beginning to frequent the clubs where I indulge my penchant for fringe musics - Mr GG will have found the same thing at the Oto in Hackney, I would think - thus opening another avenue to cultures way different (thank goodness!) from mine, and an invaluable source of fresh perspectives.

S-A

[Flosshilde]

To the extent that we all make negative judgments at times about others based on their ethnicity, age, smell, height, level of income, we are nearly all somewhat racist, ageist, prejudiced - but I would argue that there is often an element of rational prejudice at work here which harks back to how our brains were hardwired to make snap (if often irrational) fight-or-flight judgments about those different to ourselves - a mandatory survival tool during the thousands of years we spent living as nomadic hunters or in tribes, when there was critical survival value in being wary of anyone/anything different. We simply cannot adapt in the space of a few thousand years (the blink of an eyelid in evolutionary terms) to switch off these instincts and replace them with objective logic - that will surely take our hardwired Neanderthal brains a few more millennia to accomplish.

But a lot of ‘prejudice’ is also rational - particularly ageism with regard to partners. Women practice rational ageism when dismissing older men as a partner because they are less likely to be there in the future to provide for their children. But there are survival-driven instincts which override age for certain women. She may also be practicing "rational" ageism in choosing a wealthy man 20 years her senior than a poor man her own age; despite the age trade-off here, the older, materially-established man satisfies her chief criterion of future provision for her children. And is it not rational - on a purely instinctual level - for a middle-aged man to mate with younger women? Unfaithfulness and emotional hurt doesn’t really come into the Neanderthal survival-of-the-genes equation!

All prejudices, no matter how seemingly ugly, surely have at their route a perceived survival value on a subconscious level? Some are probably unmentionable in today's politically correct climate. For example, when I walk down the streets (of ethnically diverse cities) I see an overwhelming percentage of couples display a preference for choosing a partner with the same skin colour and, by the looks of it, same cultural values – which of course will result in offspring in their own image. Is this a kind of "rational racism" staring us in the face … a hypersensitive truism upon which our mainstream media dare not tread? In the laboratory of Western multicultural society, inter-racial marriages/relationships may be increasing, but remain in a statistically significant minority vis-à-vis the degree of ethnic mix in our schools, our workplaces and our leisure time haunts. This is one of the biggest inconvenient truths of our apparently ‘enlightened’ age.

I do find this so depressing - it seems to suggest that racism is genetic - part of our DNA. There's no suggestion that we - that is humanity - are capable of understanding its undesirability & making a conscious effort to overcome it.

Incidentally, we don't have "hardwired Neanderthal brains" (except in a metaphorical manner); Neanderthal 'man' was a different species to Homo Sapiens. The two overlapped by about ten thousand years, living side-by-side in Europe, until the Neanderthals died out.

"Neanderthals died out in Western Europe after a surge of modern humans arrived from Africa and made them a minority in their own land, researchers claim.
The swarm of Homo sapiens onto the continent more than 40,000 years ago left the Neanderthals, who had thrived in the frigid conditions for 300 millennia, outnumbered by a massive 10 to one. The invasion of so many modern humans overturned the Neanderthals' domination of the land and forced them into fierce competition for food, fuel and other crucial resources.

The scenario, described by Paul Mellars, emeritus professor of prehistory and human evolution at Cambridge University, and his colleague, Jennifer French, is the latest attempt by scientists to explain the mystery of the Neanderthals' demise. http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...human-invasion

Hmm, those pesky immigrants, taking our jobs & food. Oh, wait a minute - we were the immigrants.

[Flosshilde]

No. I am saying I'm not sure that I would agree that an elderly man suggesting that a 'handshake' will put an act of racist abuse right is of itself racism. If a judge gives a lenient sentence to a man found guilty of a racial crime, does that make the judge himself a racist? I am aware that the word has gained added modern nuances and that in football this is a highly sensitive issue; therefore other people perceive things differently.

Should Blatter be allowed to occupy the position he holds, given especially the problem with racism in football? I don't have an opinion on the matter. In some quarters this is perceived to be the UK media stirring. I have no opinion on that either.

Isn't the problem the fact that he seemed to have no understanding of the problems of racist abuse in football, the impact it can have on people, & the need to take strong measures to deal with it. That isn't neccessarily being racist, but his feeble & nonsensical ideas about how to deal with it (seeing it as a purely personal issue) will be likely to encourage racists to think that they can get away with it.

[scottycelt]

OTT? Fabricated? I don't think so, scotty ...

Herr Blatter must be the first man in history to be accused of 'racist remarks' after suggesting two footballers of different colours shake hands following any inappropriate banter on the field. The immediate 'fury' in the English media is way over the top and others have quickly jumped on the bandwagon, most notably the husband of that famous Spice Girl, Posh.

However, I do abhor 'jokes' which occasionally circulate and are genuinely racist like the disgusting one highlighted here by another member. 'Jokes' about disabled people also tend to make me feel physically sick. Those old enough will the recall those referring to spastics that used to do the rounds.

If someone calls me a 'Jock', I don't for one minute think he is being racist but merely bad-mannered, and that's not much to get worked up about when so many really awful things are happening to others around the world, is it now?

Herr Blatter is reported to be 'genuinely confused' by the response in England to his remarks, and has apologised publicly for any 'offence' caused.

That should be End of Story!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I'm surprised by the fatigue this engenders in you, EA. It's a subject which I find bracing.

As it turns out, this has proved to be a most interesting and objective discussion. My yawns? Well, my initial reaction was "Here we go again". But, like Sep Blatter, I may have been wrong.

[Pabmusic]

I do find this so depressing - it seems to suggest that racism is genetic - part of our DNA. There's no suggestion that we - that is humanity - are capable of understanding its undesirability & making a conscious effort to overcome it.

Incidentally, we don't have "hardwired Neanderthal brains" (except in a metaphorical manner); Neanderthal 'man' was a different species to Homo Sapiens. The two overlapped by about ten thousand years, living side-by-side in Europe, until the Neanderthals died out.

I am with you, Flosshilde. Whilst I accept that there has been natural selection that favoured immediate kin (and thus, almost identical genes), which in turn produced a tendency towards distrust of 'outsiders', it's easy to regard that as a sort of excuse for modern behaviour. We forget that humans have (probably uniquely) the ability to understand this tendency and to therefore restrain it. I'm pretty sure Richard Dawkins makes this point strongly in The Selfish Gene.

As to Neanderthals - it seems that up to 4% of the DNA of Europeans is from Neanderthals, suggesting that there was some limited interbreeding. But you're right - we descend from cro-magnons, a form of homo sapiens; neanderthals were a different 'breed' of humans (there were at least six different types).

[John Skelton]

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but throughout this discussion it seems to be assumed that any participant is or will be white. (If that's incorrect, apologies: I haven't read everything closely). At least ... I'm white, and that's how it reads to me.

[Mandryka]

Herr Blatter must be the first man in history to be accused of 'racist remarks' after suggesting two footballers of different colours shake hands following any inappropriate banter on the field. The immediate 'fury' in the English media is way over the top and others have quickly jumped on the bandwagon, most notably the husband of that famous Spice Girl, Posh.

However, I do abhor 'jokes' which occasionally circulate and are genuinely racist like the disgusting one highlighted here by another member. 'Jokes' about disabled people also tend to make me feel physically sick. Those old enough will the recall those referring to spastics that used to do the rounds.

If someone calls me a 'Jock', I don't for one minute think he is being racist but merely bad-mannered, and that's not much to get worked up about when so many really awful things are happening to others around the world, is it now?

Herr Blatter is reported to be 'genuinely confused' by the response in England to his remarks, and has apologised publicly for any 'offence' caused.

That should be End of Story!

Agree with all of this.


Up to a point, I think that 'racism' probably IS genetic: most of us will always prefer to be with people of our own culture, if given the choice, and what is wrong with that?

I was rather horrified by the tale of SA's ex-g/f rooting out 'racist' literature from school libraries. Even if things like the Little Black Sambo books may not be suitable for use in school today, isn't it far more important to understand the attitudes that informed their being written than just to condemn them as 'racist'? The ...Sambo books, btw, were written in a spirit of a promoting racial harmony by introducing white child readers to 'positive and endearing' Negro characters: it may come across as patronising to us today, but shouldn't we at least credit the author with worthy intentions? (There was a lesser-known series of 'Little White...' books, also).

[amateur51]

Herr Blatter must be the first man in history to be accused of 'racist remarks' after suggesting two footballers of different colours shake hands following any inappropriate banter on the field. The immediate 'fury' in the English media is way over the top and others have quickly jumped on the bandwagon, most notably the husband of that famous Spice Girl, Posh.

However, I do abhor 'jokes' which occasionally circulate and are genuinely racist like the disgusting one highlighted here by another member. 'Jokes' about disabled people also tend to make me feel physically sick. Those old enough will the recall those referring to spastics that used to do the rounds.

If someone calls me a 'Jock', I don't for one minute think he is being racist but merely bad-mannered, and that's not much to get worked up about when so many really awful things are happening to others around the world, is it now?

Herr Blatter is reported to be 'genuinely confused' by the response in England to his remarks, and has apologised publicly for any 'offence' caused.

That should be End of Story!

No, scotty the end of the story should be Blatter's announcement of his retirement from any position of influence in a game that he clearly does not understand and which he apparently is making no attempt to understand - SNAFU?!

[scottycelt]

'... until the Neanderthals died out. .... '

Oh, did they, now ... ?