Cern

[Guest]

So the test has been rerun with tweaks and the conclusion is the same. What does this say about time? What does it mean if effect can precede cause? I am particularly interested to hear from scientists. What could this say about new age philosophies? What things that are ordinarily dismissed as superstition might now come into play? Astrology for example?

Could the old adage really be right - "it is all mapped out for us"?:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15791236

[Frances_iom]

So the test has been rerun with tweaks and the conclusion is the same. What does this say about time? What does it mean if effect can precede cause? I am particularly interested to hear from people who have a science background what this might say about new age philosophies.

in one word 'crap'.

This is an unexpected result which however seems repeatable with the same equiptment - I suspect most are waiting to see if a dissimilar site can reproduce the findings - special + general relatively has so far stood all tests so wont be lightly 'replaced'

[Roehre]

The one conclusion which doesn't defy Einstein's Theories of Relativity (neither the special nor the General) is, that these particles jump dimensions.
We as earthlings are able to experience three dimensions.
There are more, and if these dimensions are not parallel to our three, jumping a dimension is a possibillity to arrive earlier than expected at a place.

To imagine what I mean:

-take a sheet of paper;

-imagine a two-dimensional creature that only can move within the two dimensions of this paper (l and w; assuming thickness is zero)

-make 2 ink-dots near two opposite corners of the sheet;

-for our creature the road to go from the one to the other is two-dimensional as it only is able to use the surface; it will be a straight line in two dimensions

-now we (as three-dimensional being) take that sheet, bend (or fold) it in such a way, that the two dots are (nearly)covering each other;

-for us the distance between the two dots is also a straight line, but now defined in a third dimension: jumping from the surface of the first dot through the third dimension (space) to the surface of the other dot, a very short distance indeed.

-our creature's journey from one to the other dot is still two-dimensional: forced to follow the paper-sheet's surface as it cannot do otherwise.

-consequently his (two-dimensional straight line) journey is longer than the shortest (three-dimensional straight line) possible one

Conclusion:
An extra (fourth, fifth, umpteeth) dimension enables to travel from a to b seemingly faster than is assumed for the travel distance in three dimensions.
The particle is not necessarily breaching Einstein's assumptions by reaching Italy earlier than predicted - it might have taken a shorter route.

Replacing Einstein's Theories is in this option not necessary, as as far as we know other dimensions don't affect them.

[Stillhomewardbound]

Have they factored in my arthritis? I mean sometimes I can be out of the bed and into the shower in a couple of bounds, but other mornings I can be lapped serveral times by the slug on the bedroom carpet.

Now, that what's a I call a theory of relativity!

[Anna]

I can read that article on the BBC link, and ponder, and remain completely blank and think 'Does it really matter?' Not being a scientist (obviously) but surely it won't affect anything. As long as the world keeps turning and it doesn't mean we'll now fall off surely it's just academic? Lat mentions it affecting New Age Philosophies and Astrology, so a moonbeam may get here quicker? Is that what it means? Honestly, I really do not see how this is important in day to day real life. Explanations welcome.

[notnerb]

I can read that article on the BBC link, and ponder, and remain completely blank and think 'Does it really matter?' Not being a scientist (obviously) but surely it won't affect anything. As long as the world keeps turning and it doesn't mean we'll now fall off surely it's just academic? Lat mentions it affecting New Age Philosophies and Astrology, so a moonbeam may get here quicker? Is that what it means? Honestly, I really do not see how this is important in day to day real life. Explanations welcome.

Yes, if true it certainly does matter. Day to day, for example, most of us get by without worrying too much about quantum mechanics, which is the physics of subatomic particles and only has some relatively subtle effects in the world of our senses. But without the theory, no one would have thought to develop the laser: and without the laser, no one would have developed the compact disc. So the very abstract can lead to very practical outcomes.

Not sure I'm too worried about new age philosophies, but supraluminal neutrinos could lead to all sorts of technological advances we haven't begun to think about. And, if true, it suggests that GR and SR are special classes of an even more complete theory - what is it? What might it predict?

Exciting times indeed.

[MrGongGong]

Well, Anna if you decide that only things that are important in "day to day life" then many things would be off limits
Bach as well as particle physics and fine wines
it matters more than the current preoccupation with finance
and yes , it is academic , but that's what one would think the brain is for !

the reason why my previously wonderful public library no longer has most of the music textbooks that it used to have is because those in charge didn't think they were what people wanted, they didn't have an immediate practical use ........ a very dangerous way of going about things IMV

[Frances_iom]

I can read that article on the BBC link, and ponder, and remain completely blank and think 'Does it really matter?' Not being a scientist (obviously) but surely it won't affect anything. As long as the world keeps turning and it doesn't mean we'll now fall off surely it's just academic? Lat mentions it affecting New Age Philosophies and Astrology, so a moonbeam may get here quicker? Is that what it means? Honestly, I really do not see how this is important in day to day real life. Explanations welcome.

your car navigator works relies on general theory (the satellites are moving wrt you + gps relies on highly accurate clocks).
New age crap has no bearing on this - indicates just how credulous many are - it may well be true that the date of birth affects life chances but this is societal (eg school start dates) and has nothing to do with 'heavenly bodies'.

[Anna]

But without the theory, no one would have thought to develop the laser: and without the laser, no one would have developed the compact disc. So the very abstract can lead to very practical outcomes.

Oh thanks, a concrete example I can relate to. So, techno advances may be enhanced by this finding. That makes it more interesting and more exciting.

Edit: Fine wines and Bach seem a little more obscure ..

[MrGongGong]

Oh thanks, a concrete example I can relate to. So, techno advances may be enhanced by this finding. That makes it more interesting and more exciting.

really ?
Is not the idea exciting in itself ?
or was the whole space programme a waste of money as all we (I KNOW ITS AN URBAN MYTH !) got were non stick pans ?

[Lateralthinking1]

I heard once that GPS has a limited lifespan for a scientific reason. We should therefore be conserving waymarks.

Theoretically, if effect can come before cause, effect is not necessarily related to cause. Effect then becomes something other than effect. Perhaps a phenomenon that for reasons we don't know occurs sufficiently often in relation to other specific phenomena that it creates patterns suggesting direct links.

Even if it is directly related, only in the opposite way to that believed, it reminds me of a mirror. There would be something of a reflection to it and that must have things to say about time and light?

[Quarky]

So the test has been rerun with tweaks and the conclusion is the same. What does this say about time? What does it mean if effect can precede cause? I am particularly interested to hear from scientists.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15791236

I have heard of a convincing explanation of this. The chairman of my amateur radio club, Martin G8KDF, who is a design engineer, but is/was also I think a professor of physics, has studied this situation very closely, and he gave us a talk on a possible explanation. He was convinced the experiemnt was accurate and had no hidden flaws. Also that Einstein's theories has stood the test of time.

The talk was given without any hint of confidential matter being imparted, and therefore I think I can broadcast his explanation. Which is that there is a huge lump of anti-matter in the way, between CERN and the Italian station. This effectively causes a negative refractive index, causing the neutrinos, not to slow down, but to speed up over the speed of light as measured in free space. Seemed convincing to me!

[John Skelton]

it matters more than the current preoccupation with finance

http://dg-rpc.web.cern.ch/dg-rpc/Mission_RPC.html

[Frances_iom]

Which is that there is a huge lump of anti-matter in the way, between CERN and the Italian station.

I hope it is safely constrained - if not the resulting 'bang' will certainly remove all Swiss gnomes creating a real black hole for money to dissappear into (and take much of Europe along with it)

[Anna]

really ? Is not the idea exciting in itself ?
or was the whole space programme a waste of money as all we (I KNOW ITS AN URBAN MYTH !) got were non stick pans ?

Ah, I will leave you that understand science to debate this. Already I am out of my depth as regards Teflon coated cooking utensils (I only have stainless steel or cast iron and regard Teflon as only for bad chefs) but I will enjoy reading and hopefully understand a bit more.