School rolls: 'fewer whites than ethnics in many London boroughs'.

[Lateralthinking1]

The percentage of pupils with English as a second language is far lower in places other than the London boroughs I have mentioned and the first languages are far fewer in number.

As I say, we are where we are. The trend will continue even without increased immigration. No doubt the system will adapt in the next few decades but it is harsh on these new generations.

Of course, the brighter ones will write English as a second language better than many do with English as their first. An effective society needs to cater for all. This is just one of many things that takes us in the wrong direction. It plays to elitism.

[MrGongGong]

Might I suggest a visit to the dentist
THEN
when the brain is back online
back to using it

no offence meant but my brain hardly worked at all when I had similar pain

[Lateralthinking1]

I have been four times in a fortnight and am back there tomorrow. I had the gum cut into and cleaned up. V painful. There was a lot of pus and blood. My head feels lopsided even with the strong pain killers. My eyeballs feel like that they are in my right ear and my ear feels like it is in my teeth. You wouldn't know it from these posts but I have slept for hours and feel totally knocked out.

I am sure that I would make similar points in different circumstances. Back in the 1970s and the 1980s, the majority of people from non-British backgrounds had English as their first language. Of the rest, there were perhaps half a dozen first languages of any significant number. It is Europe that has made the biggest difference and made the situation more difficult to manage.

The arguments for introducing special measures via the RRA 76 etc were all about fairness and equal opportunity. They were right. But those measures have principally helped the bright, the confident and the well off. The old discussions about race relations now get in the way of tackling inequalities between those people of all backgrounds and the less than bright, the less than confident and the less than well off. We need to drill down (!) to the real issue which is about promoting an equal society for all people.

It is quite simple really. Currently, the law provides for greater protection to someone like Shami Chakrabarti than it does for a guy in her office with no self-esteem who is paid to count paper clips. That is arguably insulting to them both - and ludicrous.

[John Skelton]

Judging by your name, we are distantly related on my mother's mother's side. The spelling is slightly different but they were illiterate. Genuinely. They started with "Skil" with one "l". Sorry to break the bad news to you.

Sorry to break some even worse news, but we are all distantly related . I'm afraid it's not my real name. I should think many of us wouldn't have to go too far back to find ancestral illiteracy.

Oh: "I don't know if tweets can be recalled." You can delete a tweet, yes.

[Flosshilde]

It is quite simple really. Currently, the law provides for greater protection to someone like Shami Chakrabarti than it does for a guy in her office with no self-esteem who is paid to count paper clips. That is arguably insulting to them both - and ludicrous.

Could you explain what sort of 'protection' you are talking about? They are protected equally by employment laws, they are protected equally by anti-discrimination laws, they are protected equally by any other laws. What sort of special 'protection' do you think Shami Chakrabarti has?

You suggested in a previous post that you felt that you had been treated more unfavourably in employment than someone who was from an ethnic minority. If you felt that was the case, you would have had grounds for going to an employment tribunal.

[Flosshilde]

Well, you are in Glasgow so you are hardly close to the changes.

According to a report in The Scotsman in 2009 there were 'at least' 138 different languages (other than English) spoken in Scottish schools. Glasgow was/is providing housing and services for asylum seekers, through a contract with the UK Border Agency. An area I live near (Govanhill) has a sizable Roma population.

"Hardly close to the changes"? Perhaps you should do a little more research before making such sweeping ststements.

[MrGongGong]

According to a report in The Scotsman in 2009 there were 'at least' 138 different languages (other than English) spoken in Scottish schools. Glasgow was/is providing housing and services for asylum seekers, through a contract with the UK Border Agency. An area I live near (Govanhill) has a sizable Roma population.

"Hardly close to the changes"? Perhaps you should do a little more research before making such sweeping ststements.

Why change the habits of a lifetime ?
Wasn't "The Changes" a TV adaptation of The Midwich Cuckoo's ?

[Lateralthinking1]

Flosshilde - Sorry for the delay in replying. I have had root canal work this morning. I have never said that I was treated less favourably in employment than "someone" who was from an ethnic minority. To set this in context, I was generally responsible for managing one or two members of staff in my work although at one time I managed nine. That means that I managed nearly forty staff in all over 25 years. I was often regarded by my bosses as too fair minded in respect of those staff. However, I believed in marking them as appropriate. They enjoyed working for me and many were subsequently promoted, including a Spaniard, a Nigerian, two Ghanaians and a New Zealander. I also enjoyed working with them all.

In the case of the Nigerian, I had to take my own manager to task on several occasions for making so-called humourous racist remarks about and towards him. Most people would have shirked this and it didn't do me any favours other than to have the feeling that I had done the right thing. Of course he denied that his comments had any serious intent and I was told to loosen up on the matter. Colleagues agreed with my stance but would not speak openly in support of me, putting themselves first.

In the case of the New Zealander, I fought the Home Office to permit him to stay in this country with an extended work permit for which he and his girlfriend were very grateful. In the case of one of the Ghanaians, I was convinced that he was right for the job and resisted calls from two female HR interview panel people to appoint a woman with lesser skills "because the section could do with another woman". I was proven right to have done this too so I have no qualms about what I will say next.

When it came to the cuts, it was decided that sick leave could not be ruled out as a criterion for deselection. Those who were disabled could not have their sick leave ruled against them. Anyone who had simply been ill did have their sick leave taken into account. Had the union been able to prove that higher levels of sick leave had been taken by non-white staff, that criterion would have been removed for all from the equation on the grounds of discrimination. As it was, there was insufficient proof.

The quota system was such that the Department had to be seen as non-discriminatory at every grade, irrespective of overall performance. So if there were three people from black or Asian groups in the top echelons and one was absolutely atrocious, that person would not have been the victim of cuts because the quota needed to be maintained. The same principle applied to larger numbers at the lower grades. And the same was true when it came to the process of selection in regard to promotion. I oppose those procedures for being fundamentally unjust and ultimately detrimental to me. - Lat.

[Flosshilde]

Thank you for your reply & explanation, Lat.

I think many people don't realise that the laws against discrimination on grounds of race or ethnic origin apply equally to white as to non-white; that is, they protect all. From your explanation it would appear that you had grounds for complaint undedr those laws. I realise that at the time it can seem that the best action to take, for the sake of your health, or because you don't have the strength to fight it, is simply to leave - I've been in that position in the past. It does sound as if your union (if you were a member) was not giving you good advice or being supportive - again, I've been in that position.

[Lateralthinking1]

Flosshilde - Thank you. It isn't appropriate to go into all the details here. However, one of the issues is about the categorisation of anxiety/depression illnesses. Unlike physical disability, they fall into a grey area. In fact, one has the option to self-define as disabled but generally there is a far greater burden of proof. The definition would not necessarily be supported by the medical establishment. In 2008, the Government was making a lot of noise about more needing to be done in the way of support for such conditions. We had workshops in which we were advised where appropriate to self-define in that way. By 2009, there was backtracking and by 2010 it was being said that many were using the terms as excuses. It was time to get tough. As it was, I didn't self-define in that way. I was aware that the physically disabled could have life hard. There was I - I'd been to university, had been in employment for 25 years, I could be forthright, I spoke of holidays in Europe and music festivals, I performed adequately and often strongly in the workplace. It didn't seem wholly right, nor did it seem that it would be fully believed.

Yet my medical records showed that I had been on tranquilizers at the age of 12, I had been on and off tablets from the age of 32, and there were probably 20 certificates signed by doctors since 1995. There had been counselling paid for by me, then ultimately by the NHS. Work provided coaching. There were occasions when I couldn't get out of the house. I was even sectioned once for 48 hours. Everyone who knows me has been aware for decades that it was never easy for me but that I fought hard against it. I was determined throughout to ensure that it affected my life as little as possible. There were many years when I had no sick leave for it at all, some where there were a few days, two where it amounted to three weeks and just one where it was four months. In many ways, my determination to soldier on was detrimental because my demeanour suggested to the casual observer that I was basically fine. I know of someone there who is physically disabled. She genuinely does have a disability and has special computer equipment. Her right to an automatic interview has been used to good effect and she has done very well. The Department pays for her to have a taxi into work every day. There were days when mentally I found it really difficult to face the world and thought that I could have done with something similar just for that day. Of course, it wouldn't have happened and I never asked.

But we had many conversations about her foreign holidays. While this was happening, she'd tell me how she had just spent some weeks in a small boat travelling up a river in Mongolia and listening to throat singers. I'd think that it took me to the age of 30 to get on a plane and how I have never been able to contemplate going further than Europe. I couldn't handle it. For the last year I haven't been able to contemplate visiting friends in London. What concerns me is that there is a hint in the way people think that those who may be vulnerable to discrimination are more vulnerable across the board. We speak about the "protection" of minorities. And what I would say is that some people in some minorities are vulnerable. Some are quite the reverse and very robust. And some who do not fit easily into those categories - one could include for example many of very low IQ or some from difficult family backgrounds - are vulnerable but the law treats them just the same as everyone else.

On the union by the way, it split with the other unions and was therefore not at some of the crucial meetings. This meant that it did not have the full facts and placed some members in an uninformed situation. When I worked hard to discover what was going on and pointed it out it felt concerned that I might challenge it as well as the Government. That was one of the reasons why it was lukewarm in its support for me. There was another point. I happened to be in a category of having reserved rights. These were preferential to many on similar grades. I didn't ask for them. I was told that was what I had to have to be employed in the first place. It was a case of where I happened to be employed and what grade I was on. The union was always uncomfortable with this discrepancy. When it came to the situation where those of us in that category stood to lose most - 85% - because the Government wanted to round everyone down to a lower level, the union was halfhearted in its opposition to it. This meant that the assurances I had given to my mortgage company no longer stood. The few in my position were effectively bullied by all sides.

[Simon]

Some interesting stuff - good to see it. Clearly some live in CCL still, but there we go: their ramblings aren't hurting anyone else, I suppose.

Of course it's natural to bond with those of similar customs, morals, worldviews, cultures and beliefs. It's been like that for millennia. Little good has ever come from high-density migration, which tends to create tensions and foster discord.

Allowing a multitude of other races, with, in some cases, major lifestyle and culture differences, to settle into ghettos in a country of (obviously) limited space and to sponge up limited resources is simply a recipe for disaster. (As to why NooLabour promoted it - the jury is still out as to why there was such a pro-immigration lobby, but some rather interesting facts are leaking out now. I expect we'll get more.)

That disaster is, of course, on its way now, and, sadly future generations will have to cope with it. What a tragic legacy we will have left them. Resentment is building especially amongst the native-born (irrelevant colour) underemployed and unemployed - no surprises there, however distasteful such feelings are. Crime rates are rising in areas of high immigration - the pro-rata figures are shocking.

As to stopping it - it's a thorny problem. The birth rates of many of the immigrant cultures are very much higher than those of traditional white British people and some unpopular decisions will have to be made. If these are made whilst there is still a non-immigrant majority, we will have a chance to put things right.

[MrGongGong]

CCL ?
Is that the same place as Wirksworth , the rural idyl where there is peace and harmony and locals chop off the odd head and take it round in a bag ?

the same opinionated bigoted nonsense then from Prof Says

"sponge up" ?????

"Of course it's natural to bond with those of similar customs, morals, worldviews, cultures and beliefs. "

I am white, English and from a middle class family, I have more in common with many of the people I work with and meet from all parts of the world than narrow minded ignorant people like Simon

But , guess what ? He's not listening

The class I was with today was 27 children, 14 were ESL , so I asked the teacher if she felt that this was a problem in their learning. The answer (not a surprise to me !) was an emphatic NO of course not, they mostly speak 2 languages of which one is English.Lack of English isn't the thing that disadvantages these children, lack of employment will be !

[gurnemanz]

CCL ?
I am white, English and from a middle class family, I have more in common with many of the people I work with and meet from all parts of the world than narrow minded ignorant people like Simon

I second that.

"Of course it's natural to bond with those of similar customs, morals, worldviews, cultures and beliefs. It's been like that for millennia. Little good has ever come from high-density migration, which tends to create tensions and foster discord." (Simon)

This is one of the most misguided and depressing assertions I have come across for a while. Quite the reverse is true. Cultural cross-fertilisation has been one of the main drivers of human progress. The thought of being condemned to bond with the likes of blinkered UKIP types like Nigel Farage is a hellish one.

[ahinton]

Of course it's natural to bond with those of similar customs, morals, worldviews, cultures and beliefs. It's been like that for millennia.

As I reminded Mr Pee, that's not so, since it was barely possible millennia ago for those of different customs, morals, worldviews, cultures and beliefs to opt into or out of such intgeraction; it's only been possible on a lare scale since the industrial revolution.

Little good has ever come from high-density migration, which tends to create tensions and foster discord.

Tell that to the obsessive British, Dutch, French, Portuguese, Spanish et al colonisers! - only you can't because it's centuries too late for that.

Allowing a multitude of other races, with, in some cases, major lifestyle and culture differences, to settle into ghettos in a country of (obviously) limited space and to sponge up limited resources is simply a recipe for disaster. (As to why NooLabour promoted it - the jury is still out as to why there was such a pro-immigration lobby, but some rather interesting facts are leaking out now. I expect we'll get more.)

Are most of Scotland and Wales, parts of England, France, Spain, Germany, Norway and heaven knows how many other areas "of (obviously) limited space"? Who determines that the areas of which you write are "ghettos" before anyone from aborad settles therein (as you imply here)? We all - by no means only or mainly immigrants into any coutry - "sponge up limited resources" these days, because we're all borrowed up to the hilt and beyond, whether we like it or not.

That disaster is, of course, on its way now, and, sadly future generations will have to cope with it. What a tragic legacy we will have left them. Resentment is building especially amongst the native-born (irrelevant colour) underemployed and unemployed - no surprises there, however distasteful such feelings are. Crime rates are rising in areas of high immigration - the pro-rata figures are shocking.

I'm not "native-born" (whatever, if anything, that may actually mean) myself, although I'v encountered very little aggravation in England by reason of being Scots and don't expect to do so when I move to France - and it's no good arguing that this is an exceptional case because of the union of GB, because even if that argument might have any credibility now (not that I believe that it does), it will immediately lose it when that union dissolves, at which point I would suddenly - and rather absurdly - morph from being a tolerated foreigner to being an alien. As to under-employment and unemployment, that is a phenomenon that is increasingly encroaching upon all manner of areas, be they well off or otherwise and regardless of the levels of immigration into them.

As to stopping it - it's a thorny problem. The birth rates of many of the immigrant cultures are very much higher than those of traditional white British people and some unpopular decisions will have to be made. If these are made whilst there is still a non-immigrant majority, we will have a chance to put things right.

I shudder to imagine what it is that you appear to be advocating here, or who you might expect to implement those decisions, how and why - and, while we're at it, please do remember the very different Chinese policy on birth (and the Chinese have the highest population of any nation on the planet). What are "traditional white British people" and how do you identify them? We're all immigrants! The principal problem here seems to me to be - as I again referred to when writing in response to Mr Pee - an unwarranted and unpalatable attitude of undue proprietoriality on the part of some people over the country in which they happen to reside; Britain isn't "my" country any more than it is that of my neighbours of all nationalities or the Queen or anyone else - it's the country in which I and they reside. The attitude to which I draw attention here brings in its wake a false and, again, unwarranted sense of presumed superiority which I find utterly distasteful and potentially and/or actually damaging.

[Flosshilde]

Some ... things right.

Ah, the great one descends from Olympus to address us. But will we heed his words? NO - so he retires to ponder on the folly of lesser beings, with only his Peep-squeek companion to encourage him.