School rolls: 'fewer whites than ethnics in many London boroughs'.

[amateur51]

Or you can accept reality and support those who are prepared to face the facts and work to find a solution.

Facts, Simon? Don't see any of those in your post.

But it's good to know that you're planning to help people working towards solutions to societal ills. So you'll be volunteering as a school governor will you? Or a youth leader? Or as a Responsible Adult to those in custody? No? Oh dear.

[Bryn]

Or you can accept reality and support those who are prepared to face the facts and work to find a solution.

A final one, by any chance?

[Bryn]

Before I read this report, Mr Pee I want you to tell me a) who undertook the research/; b) what was the size of any sampling undertaken? ;c) who did they research it for?; and d) who paid for it?

Otherwise it's pointless

The report cited was by Migration Watch UK, whose impartiality must surely be beyond question.

[amateur51]

The report cited was by Migration Watch UK, whose impartiality must surely be beyond question.

Nuff said, Bryn!

Have they started being transparent about who funds them I wonder? Only the Taxpayers' Alliance is more opaque, I reckon

[Mr Pee]

A final one, by any chance?

Precisely the sort of idiotic comment that sums up the problem. If you stick your head above the parapet and dare to suggest that immigration and multi-culturalism is not all wonderful and perfect, you're a Nazi. No wonder it's impossible to have a proper debate in this country.

Pathetic.

[Bryn]

Your self-description is again spot-on, Pee.

Perhaps you are unaware that when he first turned up, 'Simon' used to sign himself "SS!".

[Mr Pee]

Your self-description is again spot-on, Pee.

Perhaps you are unaware that when he first turned up, 'Simon' used to sign himself "SS!".

SS = Simon Says.

You seem to have some sort of obsession with Nazi Germany. Get help.

[Flosshilde]

Of course it's natural to bond with those of similar customs, morals, worldviews, cultures and beliefs.

This is one of a number of similar statements, which I find as depressing as the idea that racism is part of our genetic inheritance. It's not 'natural' - it's the result of a) ignorance of other possibilities brought about by b) a lack of transport/communication. The village or small town used to be most people's world - they lacked the means to go any further. As cheap transport became available people could go further and meet people with different ideas. The argument that people selected others the same as them to breed with to strengthen the genetic pool is wrong-headed - too much inter-breeding weakens the genetic pool (eg the high level of idiocy - probably not a very good term to use - that used to be seen in villages); ideally one would want to mate with someone with different characteristics to reduce the chance of such defects. (sorry - that's probably not very well put, but I hope you understand the point)

[Bryn]

Simon Says. You seem to have some sort of obsession with Nazi Germany. Get help.

Now, now, Pee. DOn't jump to conclusions, "SS!" was, on the surface at least, the abbreviated form of "Simon Says!". However ...

[ahinton]

There are two ways of looking at all this, exemplified by the posts on here.

You can either bury your head in the sand and pretend that mass immigration is fine and has had no effect on the current UK increase of previously under-control diseases, that the majority of city and knife crime is not perpetrated by ethnic minorities, that criminal gangs have non racial basis, that the NHS and educational system has no problems whatsoever in coping with the increased demand, that the need to provide interpreters for non-anglophone immigrants costs nothing and that it's easy to assimilate kids with no English into the school system.

Or you can accept reality and support those who are prepared to face the facts and work to find a solution.

There are surely far more than two ways of looking at anything, especially this!

OK, so let's get to it. I have never personally claimed that mass, uncontrolled immigration into any country is "fine". The disease factor that you rather distastefully cite is, however, almost as likely to manifest itself (if at all it might do) as a consequence of people coming to UK on vacation or other short visits as it might from people coming to live there permanently - and what about the same when British people go live in other countries and possibly take their diseases with them to places ill-equipped to deal with the consequences of them? It works both ways, you know - and yes, you probably do know but don't care...

As to the question of knife crime and gangland activity, I "pretend" nothing of the kind; this kind of thing manifests itself and festers and develops in (usually but not exclusively urban) situations where there are major tensions that are not necessarily about racial mixes but more often than not and more likely about more generalised advantages and disadvantages, many (though not all) of which are economic; I've said this before, so I apologise for repetition. The NHS, educational systems and other establishments have many difficulties in coping with all manner of factors, of which immigrants whose limited grasp of English is but a small one. Of course interpreters cost money and it's not easy to assimilate kids with limited or no English into the school system, but we colonised obsessively in the past and this is just one legacy of that historic activity, so we'd better goddam' well get used to it, live with it and deal with it as best we can.

[MrGongGong]

So the two extreme idiots with no real experience of any of these things
seem to be able to know what's what without any evidence or experience

what a surprise

and still no idea of exactly what is meant by this "the very nature of our society is undergoing profound change"

I wonder why ???????

[Simon]

I have never personally claimed that mass, uncontrolled immigration into any country is "fine". The disease factor that you rather distastefully cite is, however, almost as likely to manifest itself (it at all it might do) as a consequence of people coming to UK on vacation or other short visits as it might from people coming to ive here permanently -and what about the same when British people go live in other countries and possibly take their diseases with them to places ill-equipped to deal with their consequences? It works bothways, you know - and yes, you probably do know but don't care...

As to the question of knife crime and gangland activity, I "pretend" nothing of the kind; this kind of thing manifests itself and festers and develops in (usually but not exclusively urban) situations where there are major tensions that are not necessarily about racial mixes but about advantages and disadvantages, many (though not all) of which are economic; I've said this before, so I apologise for repetition. The NHS, educational systems and other establishments have many difficulties in coping with all manner of factors, of which immigrants whose limited grasp of English is but a small one. Of course interpreters cost money and it's not easy to assimilate kinds with limited or no English into the school system, but we colonised obsessively in the past and this is just one legacy of that hitoric activity, so we'd better goddam' well get used to it, live with it and deal with it as best we can.

Do forgive me Alistair, but I rarely read your longer posts so I don't usually answer them. That's because on the times you aren't actually wrong, you appear to have a very strange manner of reasoning, that I can't fathom the logic of. It's a sort of crumb logic - you appear to believe that you've successfully answered a point you don't agree with by finding some tiny circumstance that in certain cases appears to counter it. It's a bit like me saying that crows are generally black and then you coming along, having seen a single rare albino crow, and pointing out that I'm wrong because the one you saw was white. Quite true, but completely irrelevant to the main point that crows, in general, are black.

Now I'm not saying you're doing this on purpose or that you mean to be annoying - I think it's just a rather unique way of looking at things. I believe that you are fair-minded and i'm sure you're a thoroughly decent chap. But you don't seem to grasp the full picture - to see the wood for looking at the details of all the trees.

To illustrate this, I'll take your shortish post above, point by point.

The disease factors I mentioned you are wrong about: there is serious concern about measles and TB, which are now beginning to be problematic in areas of high immigration. It has no correlation with holidays. Your next point is a prime example of something that is true but irrelevant: I'm quite sure that people from this country do take ailments elsewhere in the world, and they certainly did in past centuries. But most British people don't carry measles and TB, and, fortunately, many of the worst diseases in the world are not prevalent here anyway - YF, dengue, typhoid etc. - so we can't carry them. But even if we did, it doesn't negate in any way my point. I wonder that you can't see that.

You are right that crime, gangs and knife cerime fester in urban areas. But the majority of knife problems are amongst the ethnic communities and crime of many sorts - especially drugs - is endemic amongst many groups of young black men and the demographic distribution of these in cities is no coincidence. That there are economic problems involved is undeniable. So again, your points are fair but don't negate my own: indeed, the two points correlate.

Your next point, that the NHS and other systems have many problems is also true. But yet again, you appear to believe that this is an argument against my points. It isn't. It's irrelevant to them. However many other problems it may have, the NHS has major, not small, problems dealing with ethnic minorities. I know this second-hand as my sister works in medicine in Sheffield, and, as you can imagine, we hear about some of her concerns and those of her colleagues, as well as those of a neighbour who is a surgeon. As for the educational system, you're right again. It is not easy at all - and very expensive - to assimilate kids with no English. It's done, largely, to the detriment of other kids and again at vast expense. But I do admire your honesty: you admit that you view it as a legacy of our colonies in the past - as a sort of punishment, perhaps, for the activities of past generations? That's where we differ, fundamentally. You say we need to get used to it: I say we need to stop it. Because if we don't, the England you and I knoew as children won't exist for our grandchildren.

bws Simon

[Simon]

"knew" as children, of course. Sorry - can't edit the post - the screen keeps moving up and down and I can't get to the foot of the post!

[Simon]

Perhaps you are unaware that when he first turned up, 'Simon' used to sign himself "SS!".

Simon still does, on occasions. So your point is....? - irrelevant, like most of them are.

[John Skelton]

There have been local outbreaks of TB. Unless you know differently, Simon, I know of no suggestion that TB is becoming a wider problem. As for measles: the "serious" problem there is non-uptake of the MMR vaccine, caused by health scare stories (the Daily Mail has played a particularly vivid role in disseminating those). I know a little about this, because I've worked for a South East London Community Health Trust (in a non-clinical capacity) and both issues were current then (we had a TB outbreak; we had an increased incidence of measles due to low immunisation rates with parents when asked saying they were influenced by Andrew Wakefield's claims concerning Autism and children's guts and the publicity ensuing).

Fear of 'foreigners' or 'aliens' carrying or as diseases / of plague as a metaphor for minorities has a long history, of course. The scene with rats scurrying through the sewers in Jud Süß is a famous (infamous) example.