School rolls: 'fewer whites than ethnics in many London boroughs'.

[decantor]

Long ago, and for a long time, I was a teacher. When, in the 1970s, more and more 'foreigners' began to appear in my classroom, I was initially nervous, but was soon reassured. Kids from Turkey, Nigeria, Kenya, India, Pakistan, China, Thailand, Japan, and Colombia were all just human kids. Sometimes they had no English, and then one could easily burst with pride at the resilience and fortitude they displayed - pride in belonging to the same species as they, soldiering on when deprived of easy communication, and eventually mastering the game. Furthermore, there was much to learn from both them and their parents - a humour that wasn't always caustically dry, a determination to make good, a complete disregard for the English obsession with class, a forthright, unembarrassed generosity of spirit, and much more. Of course there were problems too, but they were minor and not ethnically specific.

But I see a new problem has emerged. There are some - maybe even many - in this country who remain nervous about the 'foreign' influx, both its nature and its size. At the extreme edge are the despicable BNP and EDL, but there are many who have no wish to be extremist and yet are still concerned. However, whenever they voice their concern, they are mocked by those with 'right-on' views. The mockery serves only to increase the tension, as these moderates begin to feel they are disenfranchised, with little say in their country's evolution, and branded as racists when their sole concern is to preserve something of a recognisably British culture in their homeland. Until this fairly large group is acknowledged and accorded some respect - by both the native and immigrant populations - there will be no resolution to the wholly unnecessary ethnic friction in our society. Ridicule is never persuasive - it simply generates more hostility.

[Lateralthinking1]

[QUOTE=Simon;101412]As to why NooLabour promoted it - the jury is still out as to why there was such a pro-immigration lobby, but some rather interesting facts are leaking out now. I expect we'll get more.[QUOTE=Simon;101412]

Fair point.

[MrGongGong]

But I see a new problem has emerged. There are some - maybe even many - in this country who remain nervous about the 'foreign' influx, both its nature and its size. At the extreme edge are the despicable BNP and EDL, but there are many who have no wish to be extremist and yet are still concerned. However, whenever they voice their concern, they are mocked by those with 'right-on' views. The mockery serves only to increase the tension, as these moderates begin to feel they are disenfranchised, with little say in their country's evolution, and branded as racists when their sole concern is to preserve something of a recognisably British culture in their homeland. Until this fairly large group is acknowledged and accorded some respect - by both the native and immigrant populations - there will be no resolution to the wholly unnecessary ethnic friction in our society. Ridicule is never persuasive - it simply generates more hostility.

You know enough about Choral music (I assume ) to understand that "British Culture" is NOT preserved in aspic or a fixed thing not influenced by others.
The idea that our culture is somehow under threat from having a more diverse population is not bourn out by experience. What is it about "British" culture that is so fragile compared to (for example) Chinese culture ? Do the Chinese running a take away in Shetland feel less Chinese by being in Scotland ?

When people say that "British" culture is somehow under threat I have never been given a REAL example where this is the case, it always ends up with a vgue feeling of "unease" at driving down the road seeing people who have different coloured skin or not liking the smell of other peoples cooking.
The "British" culture that bigots like the BNP, EDL try to promote has little to do with the cultural traditions that many of us value and celebrate. As to the fantasists of the UKIP folk they really don't seem to have any idea of what they mean by culture apart from saying over and over that it's not what "they" (Mainland Europe) do !

[Mr Pee]

But I see a new problem has emerged. There are some - maybe even many - in this country who remain nervous about the 'foreign' influx, both its nature and its size. At the extreme edge are the despicable BNP and EDL, but there are many who have no wish to be extremist and yet are still concerned. However, whenever they voice their concern, they are mocked by those with 'right-on' views. The mockery serves only to increase the tension, as these moderates begin to feel they are disenfranchised, with little say in their country's evolution, and branded as racists when their sole concern is to preserve something of a recognisably British culture in their homeland. Until this fairly large group is acknowledged and accorded some respect - by both the native and immigrant populations - there will be no resolution to the wholly unnecessary ethnic friction in our society. Ridicule is never persuasive - it simply generates more hostility.

I think you're absolutely spot on there, decantor. And this fairly large group, as you describe it, is growing larger by the day. I talk to many people who not too long ago would be afraid to speak out for fear of being branded "racist" by the PC brigade, but who now feel deeply uneasy at the ghettoisation that is occuring in many inner city areas, and the reduction of the white British population to a small minority in others.

This is not just a matter of the fragility or otherwise of British culture, or Chinese take-aways. It's about an increasing perception that the very nature of our society is undergoing profound change and that open discussion of that change is still not possible lest one be branded racist- although thankfully that perception is slowly changing, bar the few who refuse to remove the blinkers.

Yes immigration has had many positive effects on our society, and these are endlessly trumpeted. But the massive, almost uncontrolled influx over the last twenty years or so has also caused many problems. For example, home grown terrorism born of religous and cultural seperation, and the black gang culture and its associated knife and gun crimes.

With the main political parties becoming increasingly indistinguishable from each other, having morphed into one centrist mass, there is a vacuum on both the far left and far right. Under its current leadership the BNP are not in a position to fill the far right gap, but given a more credible figure than Nick Griffin as leader I see no reason why in years to come we could not see the rise of such a party, as we have seen in France and Scandinavia.

Those who wish to prevent such an occurence should stop ridiculing and belittling those who are concerned about these issues. That achieves nothing.

[ahinton]

I talk to many people who not too long ago would be afraid to speak out for fear of being branded "racist" by the PC brigade, but who now feel deeply uneasy at the ghettoisation that is occuring in many inner city areas, and the reduction of the white British population to a small minority in others.

Inner city areas can become "ghettoised" without "mass immigration" being involved. One might ideally wish for a more even distribution of immigrants rather than great concentrations of them, but they'll go where the jobs are; the reason why some aras have large concentrations of immigrants is because these so-called "spongers" are not "sponging at all but seeking to live where they can work, which is why, in most rural areas, the propoprtion of immigrants is generally lower than in cities.

This is not just a matter of the fragility or otherwise of British culture, or Chinese take-aways. It's about an increasing perception that the very nature of our society is undergoing profound change and that open discussion of that change is still not possible lest one be branded racist - although thankfully that perception is slowly changing, bar the few who refuse to remove the blinkers.

You seem to write of "the very nature of our society is undergoing profound change" in pejorative terms; of course is is doing that and always has done that, the only difference being the pace of that change, but then even that is to be expected, since it is commensurate with and representative of the pace of all ofther changes in life. It is also possible to discuss concerns about population densities, immigration and the rest without using terminology and phraseology that would incite accusations of "racism", provided that one does this in a civilised and non-combative manner (which is something that BNP, EDL and the like never do and never would do whoever might lead them).

Yes immigration has had many positive effects on our society, and these are endlessly trumpeted. But the massive, almost uncontrolled influx over the last twenty years or so has also caused many problems. For example, home grown terrorism born of religous and cultural seperation, and the black gang culture and its associated knife and gun crimes.

I'm pleased that you recognise the positive effects of immigration - not everyone does - but, in so doing, you have to counter it by blowing a different trumpet (oh, where's the delectable Alison Balsom when one needs her?!). Knife and gun crime and gang culture are by no means the exclusive province of non-white immigrants. How do you define "home grown terrorism"? Most immigrants are not terrorists and those few who may be almost certainly get most of their encouragement from outside Britain. If you threw out all the immigrants in the hope of getting rid of terrorists, all that you'd achieve is far greater terrorism being visited upon Britain from outside than is now the case. Why do you claim that terrorism of any kind is "born of religious and cultural separation(sp.)"? there is no provable logical correlation between these factors.

With the main political parties becoming increasingly indistinguishable from each other, having morphed into one centrist mass, there is a vacuum on both the far left and far right. Under its current leadership the BNP are not in a position to fill the far right gap, but given a more credible figure than Nick Griffin as leader I see no reason why in years to come we could not see the rise of such a party, as we have seen in France and Scandinavia.

And what a horrifying prospect that would be! There seems to be very little on the far left these days; parties of the far right are invariably belligerent rather than civilised. Yes, we may come to see the rise of such parties, but God help us all if we let them get to hold sway! We've all been there before, haven't we?!

Those who wish to prevent such an occurence should stop ridiculing and belittling those who are concerned about these issues. That achieves nothing.

Indeed so - but then I'm not here to belittle you, Simon or anyone else.

[Mr Pee]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/8900095/England-one-of-most-crowded-countries-in-the-world.html

[ahinton]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...the-world.html

Did you not notice that paragraph 2 of this piece begins "excluding small islands"?!

Persons per square metre is indeed a fundamental means of measuring such statistics, but it's not the whole story; as I pointed out earlier, many parts of England, Scotland and Wales - yes, even England - are relatively sparsely populated. Another statistic that needs to be included in any serious consideration of this is therefore the proportion of urban and rural populations. A further factor in determing the significance and relevance of such statistics is the extent of the country's need for services and the amount of employment it can and needs to offer in order to provide them; I remember some 20 years ago that, for example, Mauritius (admittedly a "small island") had insufficient working population for the amount of employment that it was offering, but obviously its land area could hardly have been expected to expand merely for the purpose of accommodating that shortfall!

[amateur51]

Those who wish to prevent such an occurence should stop ridiculing and belittling those who are concerned about these issues. That achieves nothing.

As one of the most persistent mockers of 'the PC brigade' it ill behoves you to lecture anyone about mockery and moderation, Mr Pee

[amateur51]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...the-world.html

Before I read this report, Mr Pee I want you to tell me a) who undertook the research/; b) what was the size of any sampling undertaken? ;c) who did they research it for?; and d) who paid for it?

Otherwise it's pointless

[MrGongGong]

I think you're absolutely spot on there, decantor. And this fairly large group, as you describe it, is growing larger by the day. I talk to many people who not too long ago would be afraid to speak out for fear of being branded "racist" by the PC brigade, but who now feel deeply uneasy at the ghettoisation that is occuring in many inner city areas, and the reduction of the white British population to a small minority in others.

This is not just a matter of the fragility or otherwise of British culture, or Chinese take-aways. It's about an increasing perception that the very nature of our society is undergoing profound change and that open discussion of that change is still not possible lest one be branded racist- although thankfully that perception is slowly changing, bar the few who refuse to remove the blinkers.

Yes immigration has had many positive effects on our society, and these are endlessly trumpeted. But the massive, almost uncontrolled influx over the last twenty years or so has also caused many problems. For example, home grown terrorism born of religous and cultural seperation, and the black gang culture and its associated knife and gun crimes.

With the main political parties becoming increasingly indistinguishable from each other, having morphed into one centrist mass, there is a vacuum on both the far left and far right. Under its current leadership the BNP are not in a position to fill the far right gap, but given a more credible figure than Nick Griffin as leader I see no reason why in years to come we could not see the rise of such a party, as we have seen in France and Scandinavia.

Those who wish to prevent such an occurence should stop ridiculing and belittling those who are concerned about these issues. That achieves nothing.

So maybe you could be more specific
what EXACTLY do you mean by "the very nature of our society is undergoing profound change" and don't try to fob people off with the "everyone knows this" nonsense that one usually gets.

No-one has ever suggested that there aren't any problems in the UK
BUT
You need to be clear about what you mean by "British Culture"

to me

this includes
Drum and Bass, William Byrd and Bhangra all of which are as British as I am and certainly as English as Elgar !

When I walked down the street in Stornaway this time last year I saw no-one who didn't look like me, red hair , ruddy complexion. It's not a Ghetto of the Ginger Clan !

Some of the phrases that folk use are the same ones that extreme racists use.......

If you don't want to be mistaken for a pirate, ditch the parrot and the fake false leg !

So come on be specific ........ what EXACTLY about "British Culture" would you say has changed ?

[John Skelton]

It's about an increasing perception that the very nature of our society is undergoing profound change

It has undergone a change since the mid 1970s (accelerated from 1979 onwards) in much more "profound" ways, surely? The huge shift from an industrial to a service sector / financial sector economy, with the effects that has had on many regions of the UK? The associated breaking of the influence and political power of organised labour? The privatisation of nationalised assets? The deconstruction of the idea of a National Health Service (first through the internal market / GP fundholding; then through PFI; now intensifying involvement by private healthcare companies / corporations)? In London (which I know best) the massive corporate building projects, or the whole project of 'urban regeneration' which has changed demographics and geography beyond recognition - far more than immigration has.

Much more positive changes (for me) have had to do with changes of attitude to do with both race and sexuality. To claim there's a timeless Britain ready to be reclaimed by some dispossessed 'indigenous' population relies on forgetting an entire cultural / economic history.

[amateur51]

It has undergone a change since the mid 1970s (accelerated from 1979 onwards) in much more "profound" ways, surely? The huge shift from an industrial to a service sector / financial sector economy, with the effects that has had on many regions of the UK? The associated breaking of the influence and political power of organised labour? The privatisation of nationalised assets? The deconstruction of the idea of a National Health Service (first through the internal market / GP fundholding; then through PFI; now intensifying involvement by private healthcare companies / corporations)? In London (which I know best) the massive corporate building projects, or the whole project of 'urban regeneration' which has changed demographics and geography beyond recognition - far more than immigration has.

Much more positive changes (for me) have had to do with changes of attitude to do with both race and with sexuality. To claim there's a timeless Britain ready to be reclaimed by some dispossessed 'indigenous' population relies on forgetting an entire culture and economic history.

Triffic, John Skelton

[MrGongGong]

To claim there's a timeless Britain ready to be reclaimed by some dispossessed 'indigenous' population relies on forgetting an entire cultural / economic history.

well put indeed !

[handsomefortune]

5

as were many of john skelton's posts on the eu thread imv. (i especially approved of the post about us allegedly attempting to be 'more european' ...according to sunday papers)

[Simon]

There are two ways of looking at all this, exemplified by the posts on here.

You can either bury your head in the sand and pretend that mass immigration is fine and has had no effect on the current UK increase of previously under-control diseases, that the majority of city and knife crime is not perpetrated by ethnic minorities, that criminal gangs have non racial basis, that the NHS and educational system has no problems whatsoever in coping with the increased demand, that the need to provide interpreters for non-anglophone immigrants costs nothing and that it's easy to assimilate kids with no English into the school system.

Or you can accept reality and support those who are prepared to face the facts and work to find a solution.