School rolls: 'fewer whites than ethnics in many London boroughs'.

[Mary Chambers]

When my sister's children first went to Welsh-medium school in Wales, they were each the only child in their class who didn't speak any Welsh. They had no special help. They just picked it up.

My nephew started school in Germany, and the son of a friend went to school in France for a year when he was about nine. In both cases the parents were spending a year at universities in those countries. Both children also 'just picked it up', though they have forgotten most of it now they're grown up - they still have good accents, though.

I first came across this very odd use of the word 'ethnic' when I was in Australia forty-ish years ago. There was an 'ethnic channel' on the radio. I couldn't imagine what it meant!

[Lateralthinking1]

Surely everyone has an 'ethnic origin'?

Yes, you are right. I was wrong to use that phrase. I agree that the word "tolerate" isn't right either. That is where it isn't being used in the context of the intolerant. I think it was ok for me to say that I can't tolerate the intolerant.

I still think it comes down to matters of practicality and fairness. On the first, while I take the point about Welsh speakers, you have to bear in mind that some classes in London have 30 children and 15 or 20 languages. That's not easy.

On the latter, if I were in Devon and there was one black child in a class, I would, if I were a teacher, go out of my way to make sure that the child felt accommodated and assimilated. If I were in Deptford and there was one white child in a class, my approach would be precisely the same. I would hope that the second wouldn't be viewed by some as preferential treatment.

[MrGongGong]

A couple of recent experiences (NOT from the newspapers !)

Big secondary school, Western Isles of Scotland , 100% white (or more accurately all the pupils look like my relatives, Red hair , ruddy complexion) , a music composition project , some great and inspiring results

school 2

inner London primary school , ordinary class of 30 (far too many regardless of location ,why is this ignored by government education ministers ??? £ I suspect) 18 different 1st languages, brilliant support , inspiring teacher, we did a project that involved making recorded pieces including using text. We found more than 20 different words for describing the sound of the sea in multiple languages...... some great and inspiring results

Why do people who have no experience of current education seem to think that its ALWAYS a problem to have children in schools with multiple languages ? This seems to exclude those expensive private schools with pupils from all over the world ???

I wish my children had been in a class at primary school with so much diversity , what a wonderful opportunity for EDUCATION rather than training for macjobs

one thing that makes the English stand out historically is our lack of ability to speak other languages .........

There are problems of resources and funding in schools BUT i've seen these things work brilliantly
What's the demographic of Eton these days ????

[Lateralthinking1]

Well, I said it was difficult. That sounds like a wonderful exercise. I'm all for creativity, diversity and the learning of languages. However, you don't say how old they were or what English they had. The truth of it is that employers reckon that the standard of English is poor in school leavers and graduates, irrespective of origin. I am inclined to believe them.

[MrGongGong]

Well, I said it was difficult. That sounds like a wonderful exercise. I'm all for creativity, diversity and the learning of languages. However, you don't say how old they were or what English they had. The truth of it is that employers reckon that the standard of English is poor in school leavers and graduates, irrespective of origin. I am inclined to believe them.

10 year olds
It would be hard to be 10 ,live in London and NOT quickly pick up english !
Literacy deficits have little to do with being at a school in a diverse class imv
Many of these children act as translators for their parents !

[Bryn]

What's the demographic of Eton these days ????

Mainly indigenous U.K, but with a large minority component comprising a very wide range of national and ethnic origins indeed.

[MrGongGong]

Indeed
There is a long tradition of wealthy people sending their children to French speaking schools
Why is this not seen as a big social problem ?

[amateur51]

one thing that makes the English stand out historically is our lack of ability to speak other languages .........

There are problems of resources and funding in schools BUT i've seen these things work brilliantly
What's the demographic of Eton these days ????

Great post MrGG - insipring and assuring post based on recent experience

Is the real problem lack of ability or [B][I]lack of preparedness - arising from historical lack of need to speak other languages?

[Lateralthinking1]

I am not sure where we are going with this discussion if anywhere.

Children are at school from the age of 5. I recall how in my day, I was picked out as one of the three who were above average. There were three who were seen to be struggling with reading and writing. The solution was to get us to sit with them and help them to catch up while all the rest caught up with us. I did it very willingly and enjoyed it but on reaching a new school at 11 I realised how detrimental to us that had been. I was miles behind those who had been at other schools. I find it impossible to believe that having a class where the majority have English as a second language, or no English, makes progress easy. This does not mean that I oppose the current situation. I don't and in any case we are where we are.

As for Eton, what is the point there? That it is largely removed from these issues or more or less the same? It is distinctly different in terms of wealth and connections. That is the crucial point for me. I would like to see it closed.

[MrGongGong]

Why not go and ask a teacher who teaches in one of these schools ? It's important to remember that school today is often radically different from what we experienced as pupils !
The point about private schools is that parents deliberately send their children to places where they have stimulating multiple language environments
It's almost impossible to remain with NO English and your ability to speak it well has little to do with your "ethnic" origin

[Lateralthinking1]

I was listening to the teacher on the radio this morning. She wasn't complaining and seemed reasonably happy with her lot. She nevertheless pointed out that a young Polish boy had no English and was frequently upset in that environment. A quarter of an hour of each lesson was devoted to reassuring him. I don't know what age he is but let us say six. I don't think it is fair on him, on her or on the others. It is another one of these ridiculous situations that has arisen because of international economics. Sure, he will adapt. He has no choice. It seems very plausible to me that the situation is replicated in every state school in our major cities.

On private schools, you must be talking about the international schools on the continent. The French schools as they have been described. Yes, terrific, a genuinely wonderful concept and no doubt full of sons and daughters of multilingual diplomats. They really aren't on the same planet. If on the other hand you are referring to private schools generally, what is stimulating to parents is the name of those establishments and what that will mean in terms of future prospects. I've seen that personally.

(Incidentally, I've noticed how the children of those in the armed forces attend "English schools" when abroad. Funny that - you'd think that they might benefit more from being in a tiny minority in those countries' schools and taught in a different language!!!)

[Serial_Apologist]

No, it's not a wind up, SA. I don't think intention goes too deep for most human beings

Well I can only speak for myself, but as one who was brought "up" by virulently racist parents, (Dad: "If we hadn't built the Empire they would still be savages in Africa"; Mum: "I'm not having a black woman in MY house!" etc etc) I am quite sure that I had a lot in common with other young white people in the 1960s in needing to get real on the subject of race and confront my own INDOCTRINATED racism. And homophobia, btw. it was jazz, mainly, that came to my rescue.

and in their simple ability to identify difference, racism in some circumstances has biological origins.

What evidence are you drawing on for such a blithe statement? Then you go on in incongruous non-sequitur mode:

It [sic] geographical because culture is geographically original. It's normal.

I know you've said it's normal - (why then, ahinton and I must be abnormal!); if what you say is true, I would need to be racist to justify my contempt for the top bankers screwing of the economy, since their culture is a darn sight more different from mine than the black and Asian people living in large numbers in my district of S London. I don't actually think much of the culture I supposedly belong to - by your logic it must be because I'm white!

It may be undesirable for many reasons but it's normal and the human race needs to address it, not the white British. A part of the white racism is supposing, for example, that black people aren't routinely racist and that racism is victimising by white British. It's not a white British problem or a black British problem, it's a human problem.

Well, having nailed the issue of "normality" as ill-defined in the first place, as usual with the misuse of that term on numerous nefariously concocted occasions over the ages, let's use language with the care this issue cries out in desperation for, given the obvious (one hopes) dangers of such slapdash loose cannon thinking as "the human race needs to address it" (how, by the way, hackneyvi?) "not the white British".

Sorry? I didn't hear that last phrase?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

as social primates we are tuned to 'in' and 'out' as matters of life and death [ war was endemic among neighbouring groups in pre history] we will use any convenient and apparently remarkable distinction to draw a difference .... whatever people might say a negativity is readily demonstrable using measures of autonomic activity beyond aware control .... so in education and society i would like to advance the cause of difference and diversity as values instead of equality ... it seems to me that after fifty years of egalitarianism in education we are in a deep hole in terms of performance ... but paradoxically for diversity and diffeence to work socially and educationally i think that economically legally we have to advance anti-inequality and mutual values ... this may prove exceptionally difficult .... since the economy and the law are bastions of discrimination against virtually every one ...

btw is not the term 'racism' meaningless ... no evidential basis for races eh .... why not simply discrimination as the word? much easier to apply it around the diversity compass then ....

i am also in favour of not visiting the sins of the fathers upon their children .... so i do not accept any blame nor culpability for affairs prior to my adulthood thanks .... nor seek to impose such judgement on others ....


Blair and Brown opened the floodgate on immigration and it is very hard to close it, they did this without the least social educational or housing provision for the increased numbers ... i do think that on mature reflection the B&B reign over us will be viewed with utter ignominy on all and every facet of accountability ....

S_A there is plentiful evidence for the biological and innate nature of in and out discrimination in humans ... the early work of Tajfel in the UK being seminal ...

[Serial_Apologist]

Indeed
There is a long tradition of wealthy people sending their children to French speaking schools
Why is this not seen as a big social problem ?

Well I would venture to suggest that, in coming to see themselves as ONE CLASS that lives off the backs of and divides and rules the rest - who do not see ourselves as ONE CLASS... the ruling CLASS have overcome their racial feelings of superiority over one-other. Brecht made this point clear in "Die Rundkopfe und die Spitzkopfer", co-written in 1936 with composer Hanns Eisler. Though, when one sees the anti-French prejudices informing Tory EU skeptics, in particular, one remembers to bear the fake character of such prejudices in mind for when their system eventually breaks down so completely they have to resort to nationalism and war again.

Lest we forget...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Whenever I am asked to declare my ethnic origin, I decline, as it's totally irrelevant.