What's it all about, then? - J Cage

[Mr Pee]

4:33" is not composed of "nothing"

Yes it is. Surely that's whole point of it? If indeed it has a point. Which it doesn't.

Let me try and explain.

When Beethoven composed the Eroica symphony, he had to consider themes and their development, key structure, orchestration,dynamics, tempi and metronome markings, and the order of movements.

When Cage "composed" 4:33 he had to consider.......nothing.... apart from-" how long should it be?"

That's if he even considered anything at all. Rather than simply timing how long it took his kettle to boil....

[Mr Pee]

There is more to it than that 4'33" provides a gateway to "silence". Assuming we accept on faith Cage's account of the work's origin, the irony of, and our responses to it, pose several implications regarding conditioned responses when listening, and the state of preparedness such responses aid in fostering states of unpreparedness towards life's unpredictabilities in general. 4'33" can never be listened to without facing its paradoxes, and therefore not literally. To intentionally by-pass the framework and experience the silence in the manner of a tabula rasa, as induced by meditation methods, is rendered impossible by the circumstances of its performance. The listener is culturally "bugged" by the surrounds, the protocols governing concert attendance, etc.: it would be as impossible as taking a medecine which will only work if one does not think of a pink elephant while taking it. One is left thinking of not thinking, etc etc. The piece could have taken any manner of audible forms for purposes of performance; as happened, when Cage tossed the die to get the arithmetical coordinates needed to plot it, by chance the numbers which came up instructed a silent performance. Ever since encountering Zen philosophy in the late 1940s, Cage had made non-intention central to his compositional modus operandi. But, being aware of culture's bearing, not just on how music should sound, what it may be allowed to include, how it should be performed, but on the degree to which it is possible to exercise control over materials of composition, as I understand it he saw it his responsibility to offer materials which liberated musical sounds to be themselves, rather than be victims of the misconstrued motivations of the composer he saw in the situation of contemporary, super-controlled composition methods being devised by the most committed followers of serialism. For him, these methods of composition had been a form of obsession long in the making - one which, rightly imv, signified a civilisation obsessed with bettering itself, disregardful of the natural environment. But, leaving aside the "gateway to silence" aspect of the piece, 4'33" also points up the paradox of the composer's role on another level - indeed from the perspective of any action undertaken, in the light of the impossibility of taking full account of its outcome, however desirable this may seem. As Mr GG always reminds us, it's all a matter of context; indeed, coming to terms with imponderability is central to a philosophy that places centrality upon sensitivity to the here and now and to our impact upon our surrounds (and their impact on us). And so - multilevelled paradox - the intentional act of arriving at non-intention is reached in 4'33" in such a way as to unintentionaly provide one possible means to a desired end which, the moment it is reached, is no end, but a spiritual awakening and a new beginning. That's the way Cage would see it - I think.

I think I might send the above into Pseud's Corner, along with several other contributions to this thread......

[MrGongGong]

I think I might send the above into Pseud's Corner, along with several other contributions to this thread......

Obviously too many long words for you.
Have you actually bothered to READ what it says ? and applied your brain (??????????) to understanding a bit ??

[barber olly]

I'm tired of the people who think its a "joke"...

I'm tired of people who take it seriously ...
Here's the twist, like the Urban Spaceman it doesn't exist!

[Panjandrum]

Obviously too many long words for you.
Have you actually bothered to READ what it says ? and applied your brain (??????????) to understanding a bit ??

You are having a laugh - right?

[Panjandrum]

I think I might send the above into Pseud's Corner, along with several other contributions to this thread......

I think this thread, and in particular the "contributions" of the deadly duo would keep Pseuds' Corner in copy for years.

[John Skelton]

On the Hear & Now Cage thread, but removed to here and appearing as # 5 you wrote: "I merely asked for some kind of justification as to the significance of 4'33", rather than the customary obeisance before a holy relic of modernism ...."

On the original thread I offered some reasons why I think it significant; others have offered reasons here. Several contributors, myself included, have suggested other music by Cage and I've given a number of Youtube links. In response to the responses to your request, you offer:

I think this thread, and in particular the "contributions" of the deadly duo would keep Pseuds' Corner in copy for years.

Do you not think that is extremely rude of you?

[Mr Pee]

Do you not think that is extremely rude of you?

Not at all. I do think that some of the posts here would sit very happily in Pseuds Corner.

As for rudeness, why not try these charming contributions:-

Obviously too many long words for you.

maybe it would be good if you stuck to downloading little animated emoticons like the other 9 year olds

[Panjandrum]

Do you not think that is extremely rude of you?

Do you not think that msg #2 and #4 were "extremely rude"?

[amateur51]

Do you not think that msg #2 and #4 were "extremely rude"?

And your point is ...?

[Panjandrum]

And your point is ...?

No-one abhors rudeness and ill manners more than me Ammy, and it is my motto to always begin by treating others with the courtesy which is all our due; but when one is attacked...let's say only that I am responding in kind.

[amateur51]

No-one abhors rudeness and ill manners more than me Ammy, and t is my motto to always begin by treating others with courtesy; but when one is attacked...let's say only that I am responding in kind.

Ah I hadn't heard of this - two wrongs making a right, I mean - is this anything to do with this particle they may have discovered that travels at faster than the speed of light?

[Panjandrum]

Ah I hadn't heard of this - two wrongs making a right, I mean - is this anything to do with this particle they may have discovered that travels at faster than the speed of light?

So what, btw, are your views on 4'33? Its unlike you to remain silent on an issue!

[amateur51]

So what, btw, are your views on 4'33? Its unlike you to remain silent on an issue!

Delighted and thrilled to have surprised you!

[John Skelton]

Do you not think that msg #2 and #4 were "extremely rude"?

Oh undoubtedly. But there does appear to be a prevailing 'Emperor's New Clothes' tendency in conversations like this, which I suppose some find goading. Me, I just relish the rich diversity of human response.

Though I still think it unhelpful, at the least, to respond to posts people have clearly taken some trouble over by offering to send the texts to "Pseud's Corner" (I'm not in the least a fan of the thing: perhaps that makes me a "Pseud" ).