What's it all about, then? - J Cage

[Mr Pee]

Basically, those who don't appreciate 4'33" tend not to be very fond of listening in general.

That has to be a joke. If not, then it's one of the most pompous and condescending remarks I've ever read on these boards. And that's saying something.

[Bryn]

You should read your own some time. The work is very much about listening, not only to the environmental sounds, but also those of your own corporeal entity.

[Panjandrum]

The work is very much about listening, not only to the environmental sounds, but also those of your own corporeal entity.

I do enough of that each time after a good meal.

[burning dog]

I don't think the work is a joke at all but the "jokes" about it, is there a reggae version?, disco mix?, etc. are possibly kind of the point, or one of them. If there were they'd be "different" from the concert hall version, wouldn't they?

'Ad this reggae singer in the front of the cab once..

[barber olly]

I don't think the work is a joke at all...

I don't think it is a work at all.

[MrGongGong]

[Mr Pee]

Bryn is exactly right , many "classical music lovers" seem to be unable to engage in listening on a more than superficial level
if one thinks of revolutionary music in history then The Eroica, Rite of Spring etc etc come to mind
it is , of course, a work because (AGAIN ) it fulfils all the criteria for a musical composition
It has form (I seem to remember the Eroica being criticised for NOT having "form" or one that was perceived at the time), it has sonic events , it has a performance context what more do you want ??????

Good lord, I really can't believe that this nonsense is a serious post.

Once again, we have the denigration of those who can see 4:33 for the joke that it is, that we are "unable to engage in listening on a more than superficial level". You have no idea how I listen, or what I draw from that listening. I like Elgar, you may not. I could equally pompously declaim that the reason you don't like that composer is because you don't know how to listen properly- and it would be a totally fatuous and condescending statement, based on complete ignorance of your listening habits. As your remark is.

And you then go on to say that 4 minutes 33 seconds of silence- or ambient noise, or the sounds of your heartbeat, or whatever else you care to mention- "fulfils all the criteria for a musical composition", a statement so laughable that I really find it hard to believe that you even understand the meaning of the term. And to compare Cage to Beethoven.....well, that says it all.

Really. It's astonishing how so many people have been taken in by this rubbish. It's beyond comprehension.

[Bryn]

Don't worry Pee, I doubt anyone here is taken in by the rubbish you offer us there. Of course, Cage, was highly critical Beethoven, as Stravinsky had been, particularly regarding the Violin Concerto.

[MrGongGong]

Really. It's astonishing how so many people have been taken in by this rubbish. It's beyond comprehension.

I know
Ludwig was doing so well at the start ! then that dreadful noise in the 3rd Symphony , what a waste of talent

What on earth has "liking" it got to do with whether it's any good or not ?
obviously to you its all about that !

If the cap fits mrP

(but you seem to have pulled it down over your ears !)

maybe it would be good if you stuck to downloading little animated emoticons like the other 9 year olds, and stop trying to have discussions about music when all you seem to want to do is to refuse to listen to what others have to say. What is hilarious is that today I was working for one of the main Classical music organisations in the UK , with their players composing music using precisely the ideas that you are so dismissive of !!!

[french frank]

Bryn is exactly right , many "classical music lovers" seem to be unable to engage in listening on a more than superficial level
if one thinks of revolutionary music in history then The Eroica, Rite of Spring etc etc come to mind

I'm not sure what the quotes are meant to signify, exactly. Is there an implication that people who are not "classical music lovers" are, as a category, better able to listen? (I'd have thought most of the younger ones would be well on the way to being hearing impaired.)

[Panjandrum]

Of course, 4'33" is open to a variety of interpretations. Norrington takes the whole piece at a real gallop, eschewing any lingering vibrato in his recording, which comes in, under the mark, at an equestrian 2'25. Rumour has it that languishing in the vaults of the Philharmonie, Munich, is a tape made by Celibidache in which the Rumanian master draws out the latent pathos in the work. In a performance which courts controversy, Celibidache turns in what must be the slowest performance on record, coming in at a funereal 15'59. The final moments though as the dying peroration gives way to profound silence in the auditorium are ones which truly seem to last forever.

[Mr Pee]

I know
Ludwig was doing so well at the start ! then that dreadful noise in the 3rd Symphony , what a waste of talent

What on earth has "liking" it got to do with whether it's any good or not ?
obviously to you its all about that !

If the cap fits mrP

(but you seem to have pulled it down over your ears !)

Oh for goodness sake........

No, it's not all about that. I was using Elgar as an example of the way that your condescending attitude to those who do't "get" Cage is completely meaningless. Surely you can understand that. Then again.....

And the Eroica- it's a musical COMPOSITION. It is not 4:33 of nothing. That's quite a big difference.

[MrGongGong]

I'm not sure what the quotes are meant to signify, exactly. Is there an implication that people who are not "classical music lovers" are, as a category, better able to listen? (I'd have thought most of the younger ones would be well on the way to being hearing impaired.)

the quotes are to indicate that some people who describe themselves as classical music lovers seem to be unable to listen to anything that challenges their view of what music is for. Which is , as many will know, is really odd as much of the music that is now well within the classical canon was considered as amusical by the "music lovers" of the day as Cage is by these people.(I was thinking about the Eroica film that was on the other night !)

[Bryn]

No frenchie, I think it more likely to have been associated with what Cage said at the end of:

http://www.lcdf.org/indeterminacy/s.cgi?47

My guess it that "classical music lovers" was in quotes to indicate irony, a method you might consider adopting, eh?

[MrGongGong]

And the Eroica- it's a musical COMPOSITION. It is not 4:33 of nothing. That's quite a big difference.

Not at the time , it was considered an ugly noise by many
4:33" is not composed of "nothing"