The Euro: Dead

[aeolium]

as does this a very cold logic at work here but telling as he sees it

An interesting interview, Calum, with some strong if very bleak arguments from the interviewee. He did present the proposed plan of partial restructuring mixed with severe austerity as almost ludicrously ineffective.

It seems as though France and the Netherlands are now coming into the firing line of the markets.....it's like a financial blitzkrieg, with bond investors instead of Panzer tanks.

[teamsaint]

An interesting interview, Calum, with some strong if very bleak arguments from the interviewee. He did present the proposed plan of partial restructuring mixed with severe austerity as almost ludicrously ineffective.

It seems as though France and the Netherlands are now coming into the firing line of the markets.....it's like a financial blitzkrieg, with bond investors instead of Panzer tanks.

Until the markets are dealt with, the (basically sound) economies of Europe are at great risk.......but there seems to be no will at all to deal with the speculators who are running the world.

I know the conclusion that I draw from this.

i am afraid that there are very dark forces at work.

[John Skelton]

Interesting piece by Richard Seymour on the British Conservative Party and the Eurozone crisis http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/3674854.html

Do people actually read the articles they comment on? Most who respond seem to think Seymour is supporting "a series of measures that would constitute federalism in all but name. These include imposing budget rules that the European Court of Justice would enforce, the centralisation of financial power in the form of a European monetary fund, the abolition of national vetoes, and the further transfer of economic sovereignty to Brussels" - which he clearly isn't. What he is doing is pointing to the problems it causes a Conservative government attempting to balance the interests of its larger business supporters and its traditional small business and nationalist constituency: "When the British government is declaring its intention to fight for the 'repatriation' of powers ceded to Brussels, this is potentially incendiary material for a fractious Conservative Party."


In other news: Mario Monti's new cabinet doesn't include anyone who has been elected by anybody. Not a single elected politician.

"His ministers include Corrado Passera, CEO of Italy's second-largest bank Intesa Sanpaolo, utility company Enel chairman Piero Gnudi and current Italian ambassador to Washington Giulio Terzi di Sant'Agata. Passera also sits on the board of directors of Milan's Bocconi University, which forms Italy's business elite. Monti is currently the head of the Bocconi. A Catholic church historian with close ties to the Vatican, Andrea Riccardi, was also named as a minister." http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/n...ew/full/112032

[scottycelt]

Does anyone understand what the Tory slogan, 'in Europe, but not run by Europe' actually means ... if so, I would be grateful for some sort of explanation!

I join a club and then say I'll only abide by the rules that suit me and don't give a toss for the interests and views of the other members ... that's what it sounds like to me, but, no, it can't mean that, surely? ... after all, I thought we were all in this (financial mess) together ...

[scottycelt]

Hmmm ... seems like Herr Kauder's got much the same message from Davie & the Diplomats ...



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15779889

[MrGongGong]

Does anyone understand what the Tory slogan, 'in Europe, but not run by Europe' actually means ... if so, I would be grateful for some sort of explanation!

I join a club and then say I'll only abide by the rules that suit me and don't give a toss for the interests and views of the other members ... that's what it sounds like to me, but, no, it can't mean that, surely? ... after all, I thought we were all in this (financial mess) together ...

indeed
and exactly WHICH powers do they want back from the EU ?

[John Skelton]

Does anyone understand what the Tory slogan, 'in Europe, but not run by Europe' actually means ... if so, I would be grateful for some sort of explanation!

I join a club and then say I'll only abide by the rules that suit me and don't give a toss for the interests and views of the other members ... that's what it sounds like to me, but, no, it can't mean that, surely? ... after all, I thought we were all in this (financial mess) together ...

It means that the Conservative Party is a coalition, and has been since the late 1980s: the big business and finance sector interests see European political integration as the mechanism to realise budgetary integration and support that. Small business owners see nothing in it for them except vexation. Activists and politicians like Gove and Fox share Thatcher's dream of an American-British alliance against the perfidious Germans, French, whoever. The meaninglessness of the slogan is designed to help stop them tearing each other to pieces. Whatever Cameron might say the first group will win out one way or another. Cheer up, scotty. Your vision of a Europe governed by unelected 'centrist' experts won't be derailed. It's already in place in Italy (not one elected politician in the new cabinet. So no need to even pretend bothering what the unenlightened populace might think).

Pathetic though the Tory 'Eurosceptics' are, they do have a case (and it's a great pity that in the political mainstream they are the only ones ... articulating it isn't exactly the thing) when they point out that Merkel's

"The task of our generation is to complete economic and monetary union, and build political union in Europe, step by step... that does not mean less Europe, it means more Europe"

hasn't actually been put to the European peoples. So by generation she presumably means the generation of a certain political elite working with a technocratic and banking elite. The rest of us should just know our place and be grateful. Whether we want it or not. Everything else aside - do you think that is much of a recipe for a Europe united in anything other than imposed institution and policy?

[scottycelt]

Well, the German 'people' can always throw Merkel out at the next election, and the other 'peoples' can do the same, John. The Italian 'centrists' (oh jeez, don't tell me there's now a Vatican spy among them as well, ) who have been brought in to try and sort out the national mess will themselves have to eventually submit themselves to face the judgement of the electorate ... right now is hardly the time for elections whether it be, Greece, Italy or any other country which now finds itself embroiled in an urgent crisis.

Cameron talks about 'grand plans' ... well, he should know with his Big Society etc ... at least Merkel's is still very much a possibility and, imho, very likely now an inevitability however much political pygmies like Cameron carp from the sidelines.

Sometimes, I think we should just simply apply to be the next state of the USA and be done with it ... trouble is the Yanks would probably roll about laughing at the very suggestion, as they don't really need a permanently-anchored aircraft-carrier off the continent of Europe, anymore.

[John Skelton]

Well, the German 'people' can always throw Merkel out at the next election, and the other 'peoples' can do the same, John. The Italian 'centrists' (oh jeez, don't tell me there's now a Vatican spy among them as well, ) who have been brought in to try and sort out the national mess will themselves have to eventually submit themselves to face the judgement of the electorate ... right now is hardly the time for elections whether it be, Greece, Italy or any other country which now finds itself embroiled in an urgent crisis.

Cameron talks about 'grand plans' ... well, he should know with his Big Society etc ... at least Merkel's is still very much a possibility and, imho, very likely now an inevitability however much political pygmies like Cameron carp from the sidelines.

Sometimes, I think we should just simply apply to be the next state of the USA and be done with it ... trouble is the Yanks would probably roll about laughing at the very suggestion, as they don't really need a permanently-anchored aircraft-carrier off the continent of Europe, anymore.

There is a Vatican spy of a sort, scotty! Andrea Riccardi - a Catholic church historian. Who brought them in to sort out the mess? Giorgio Napolitano, sat down with his address book?

"will themselves have to eventually submit themselves to face the judgement of the electorate."

No they won't. None of them are elected politicians. Why is "right now hardly the time for elections"? Elections can only be held when the outcome won't matter?

"Sometimes, I think we should just simply apply to be the next state of the USA and be done with it."

Don't see the relevance. Why should we do that?

[scottycelt]

There is a Vatican spy of a sort, scotty! Andrea Riccardi - a Catholic church historian. Who brought them in to sort out the mess? Giorgio Napolitano, sat down with his address book?

"will themselves have to eventually submit themselves to face the judgement of the electorate."

No they won't. None of them are elected politicians. Why is "right now hardly the time for elections"? Elections can only be held when the outcome won't matter?

"Sometimes, I think we should just simply apply to be the next state of the USA and be done with it."

Don't see the relevance. Why should we do that?

A Catholic Church historian?!! ... man the barricades, you chaps!

Regarding elections. Now, say there were a serial killer on the loose whose victims included toddlers and dear old grannies, etc ... would you immediately call for an election (or referendum) over the issue of capital punishment, and claim that our rulers who are largely against, were acting against the wishes of 'the people'? ,

I take your point about not being directly elected, but in both Greece and Italy they were appointed after discussions with those who have been elected. Maybe it's my turn to suggest you cheer up, John, as there will be plenty of time in the future for the 'people' to throw them out if that is their wish, once this crisis is hopefully past its very worst!

As for applying to become the next US state ... not so crazy if we suddenly find ourselves all alone and friendless (and thus nobody to trade with, Mr Cameron!) in this big, bad unforgiving world?

[teamsaint]

A Catholic Church historian?!! ... man the barricades, you chaps!

Regarding elections. Now, say there were a serial killer on the loose whose victims included toddlers and dear old grannies, etc ... would you immediately call for an election (or referendum) over the issue of capital punishment, and claim that our rulers who are largely against, were acting against the wishes of 'the people'? ,

I take your point about not being directly elected, but in both Greece and Italy they were appointed after discussions with those who have been elected. Maybe it's my turn to suggest you cheer up, John, as there will be plenty of time in the future for the 'people' to throw them out if that is their wish, once this crisis is hopefully past its very worst!

As for applying to become the next US state ... not so crazy if we suddenly find ourselves all alone and friendless (and thus nobody to trade with, Mr Cameron!) in this big, bad unforgiving world?

So if, for example, blair had been pushed, and replaced by a bunch of his unelected mates, after he had held some discussions, that would have been alright?

Your optimism about what might happen when the worst has happened does you credit !!

[scottycelt]

So if, for example, blair had been pushed, and replaced by a bunch of his unelected mates, after he had held some discussions, that would have been alright?

Your optimism about what might happen when the worst has happened does you credit !!

No, no, no ... the discussions were with the respective Presidents ... is that not one of the vital roles of elected republican presidents as well as unelected monarchs as in the UK?

[Serial_Apologist]

And "All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds". (Pangloss, in "Candide" - Voltaire)

[John Skelton]

Regarding elections. Now, say there were a serial killer on the loose whose victims included toddlers and dear old grannies, etc ... would you immediately call for an election (or referendum) over the issue of capital punishment, and claim that our rulers who are largely against, were acting against the wishes of 'the people'?

Surely your analogy would only work if "our rulers" (interesting phrase ) - MPs, say - had been replaced by a cabinet of expert judges, criminologists, hangmen etc. to deal with the crisis? I might wonder then why some sort of intervening process hadn't taken place, but I guess you'd say they are all experts and this isn't the time for etc.

I didn't say anything about "acting against the wishes of 'the people'" because, in Italy, who knows? Some people are surely just glad to see the back of Berlusconi. Some might be mildly perplexed by Italy's ambassador to Washington, Giulio Terzi di Sant'Agata, turning his hand to socially fair austerity for people unlike Giulio Terzi di Sant'Agata.

[aeolium]

This article , which might be a bit misleadingly titled, seems to me to give some indirect support to the arguments of the hedge fund broker recently interviewed on BBC's Hard Talk, and whose interview was linked to in Calum's msg 103. It shows just how serious the position is, the difficulty that the EFSF is having getting funds, and the pressure increasingly placed on the ECB. McRae says that the ECB has effectively been supporting the weaker countries for some years, but nevertheless the borrowing costs of those countries are increasing. And "the danger is that the ECB ends up with more and more dodgy sovereign debt on its books and the eurozone faces an even greater catastrophe as and when these countries default."

Where is the money going to come from to bail out the weaker countries (never mind if core countries like France are drawn in to a spiral of higher borrowing costs)? Questions about 'more Europe' or 'less Europe' seem quite trivial compared with the short-term crisis. If there is a major default then the eurozone has had it and those questions become redundant.