The Euro: Dead

[MrGongGong]

It may be my obtuseness, or it may be my shocking antipathy to compromise and consensus, but I still don't see what a conversation about European culture, lovely though the Thing probably is, has to do with the Euro and the crisis in the Eurozone.

Maybe it's just me, but I was under the (mistaken maybe ?) impression that culture in the widest sense is precisely what it's ALL about. I don't just mean "Isn't Wagner wonderful" but the myriad of ways in which we define ourselves through music, food, architecture, art and the way in which we treat the more vulnerable in our society as well as encouraging those with ideas to flourish (who might be the same people !)
We seem to be unable (in the UK) to consider this.

[vinteuil]

Maybe it's just me, but I was under the (mistaken maybe ?) impression that culture in the widest sense is precisely what it's ALL about. I don't just mean "Isn't Wagner wonderful" but the myriad of ways in which we define ourselves through music, food, architecture, art and the way in which we treat the more vulnerable in our society as well as encouraging those with ideas to flourish .

I spent the second half of my so-called 'career' in the labyrinth of cultural diplomacy/bureaucracy and the more abstract ends of arts administration. The zillions of hours wasted at interminable meetings - purely because the English language uses ONE word - 'culture' - to cover TWO quite distinct meanings - culture as 'high art', and culture as a sociological term for 'what everyone does'. If only we had two terms - praps kulchur and culture - people's thinking in this area wd be much clearer

[John Skelton]

All what is about, GG? The Euro is all about culture in the widest sense? Austerity programmes and bailouts are about culture in the widest sense? Fiscal union is about culture in the widest sense? Fine, but how does the culture I think you are invoking here fit with the subject of this thread? It certainly doesn't square with treating "the more vulnerable in our society" well.

I dunno. I get the sense that there's 'the European Ideal' and anything as vulgar as actual politics, real economics, things that are happening are treated as non-existent.

In what way is a single currency and more importantly a single economic policy necessary or even necessarily conducive to whatever it is you think "we" (in the UK) are unable to consider? The whole business of so-called Euro-skepticism is a red herring in the context of this discussion, IMO. As, conversely, are common cultures (in either of vinteuil's senses ). Etc.

The conversation isn't about 'should we feel European' ....

[scottycelt]

It's easy for Mario Blejer or anyone else to pontificate that someone far away should pay off someone else's full debt ... dead easy! In any case, the article quoted in the ever-sensationalist Bloomberg is now way out of date and Greece has been offered entirely more acceptable and realistic terms since the publication.

All the European countries should go out of their way to assist a fellow-member as far as they are able, but the Greeks themselves must also face reality and be prepared to make sacrifices to sort the mess out. A 50% 'haircut' on the debt seems pretty generous to me and I think accusing Merkel and Sarkozy of 'bullying' is ridiculous and unfair, and smacks of the Little Englander mentality. Germany and France, especially the former, will no doubt pick up much of the bill at the end of it all.

As for a future USE army there is already a measure of significant integration between countries, recently most notably between the UK and France. Far, far better uniting to defend the interests of all, than reverting back to fighting among ourselves, eh?

I also didn't realise that these countries 'electorates' were particularly agreeable or even ever consulted about going to any war under their current national flags, in any case ...

[aeolium]

Tho' when it comes to hard politics - if we follow the thinking of our more 'United States of Europe' enthusiasts - I am interested in how people will think - once there is a unified tax and therefore political system - about a natural consequence, namely a unified military - who will decide when to send a 'European Army' in to fight / defend ?? Will it be the case that the (previously) British - French - German - Dutch - Swedish electorate will be sufficiently 'agreeable' to the decision to put our men and women in harm's way to inflict damage on an agreed 'enemy' ??

Or indeed taxation rates. Once these are harmonised and set centrally, will there remain the option to have a higher tax/higher public spending model (Scandinavia) or a lower tax/lower public spending model (UK, Ireland and some others)? Will there be any point in electing national politicians under a truly fiscal union?

I think this article, together with the report to which it refers, is a powerful statement of the evidential case against the euro. What is interesting also is that it is not a 'Eurosceptic' report - it notes the positive effects of EU membership on the PIIGS countries prior to the introduction of the euro (Ireland, for instance, did very well).

[John Skelton]

A 50% 'haircut' on the debt seems pretty generous to me and I think accusing Merkel and Sarkozy of 'bullying' is ridiculous and unfair, and smacks of the Little Englander mentality. Germany and France, especially the former, will no doubt pick up much of the bill at the end of it all.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,15508757,00.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8854125/French-and-German-relief-as-Greek-haircut-not-expected-to-trigger-CDS.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/nov/01/greece-referendum-eurozone-crisis

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13876626

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/nov/03/european-central-bank-interest-rates

I'd no idea I had a 'Little Englander' mentality, but thanks for telling me.

[Flosshilde]

So basically you are saying that culture is irrelevant ?
That's more or less what Dave and his chums think as well......... the price of everything and the value of nothing
I'm sure you don't mean that ?

Irrelevant to this discussion, which is about the Euro. Not to life. And my argument was that we can find similarities with, & the influence of, other, non-European, cultures in other areas of lfe, but it doesn't mean that we should enter into fiscal union with them.

[Flosshilde]

What utter nonsense. Floss!

Scotland had a thriving relationship with European countries long before James VI of Scotland became James I of England & Ireland, the most glaringly obvious being the famous Auld Alliance with France which is still recognised today by many Frenchmen and women as visiting Scots to that country will readily testify. Scottish Baronial architecture is most obviously inspired by continental influences, not to mention the great churches and buildings designed by the now rather ironically nick-named 'Greek' Thomson. Anyone walking down the Royal Mile in Edinburgh might occasionally imagine they were suddenly transported to a typical town thoroughfare somewhere delightfully quaint in Northern Europe.

As for the UK itself, it has always been deeply involved in and influenced by events on the continent. It is as much a part of European culture as France and Germany or any other country in the EU, whether many of its people are aware of it or not.

Oh dear, I knew I shouldn't have added that last comment. I agree that Scotland was probably more influenced by its European neighbours & trading partners across the North Sea than England was by its closest neighbour across the Channel, and indeed probably had more influence on them than England did on its nearest neighbour. I'm not so certain that Scottish Baronial shows any continental influence (although I did see a 19th century 'castle' at the weekend that displayed a curious mix of Scottish baronial, Bavarian castle as built by Ludwig, Transylvanian castle & French Loir chateau - http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3599/...d6bd732a25.jpg). Alexander Thomson took motifs from Egypt & India as much as from Classical Greece - http://www.scotcities.com/qpchurch_tower.jpg & http://www.scotcities.com/stvincent_tops.jpg

[scottycelt]

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,15508757,00.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8854125/French-and-German-relief-as-Greek-haircut-not-expected-to-trigger-CDS.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/nov/01/greece-referendum-eurozone-crisis

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13876626

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/nov/03/european-central-bank-interest-rates

I'd no idea I had a 'Little Englander' mentality, but thanks for telling me.

I've no idea whether you have a 'Little Englander' mentality or not, and have never accused you of anything of the sort!

I merely remarked that those who accuse Merkel and Sarkozy of 'bullying' the Greeks may well suffer from this now common political and media virus, which casts the Germans and French in particular as the cause of all our problems and now apparently the Greeks' as well.

Do you not agree ... ?

[handsomefortune]

i wonder if greeks think this debate only relates to the euro?

or, that 'kulture' in relation to *a sociological term for 'what everyone does' is actually relevant, important to discuss?

(that is, apart from those greeks who nolonger 'do what everyone does', in eg committing suicide, living on zilch, no jobs, homeless, and what if these kultural conditions spread/worsen)?

anyway, back to guess work about a manmade monetary currency ..... and speculation as to what germans might prefer, according to their own needs as a country.

(*thanks vintuel, for the kultural/cultural distinction .... though arguably they DO relate, or converge: a kulture of harsh insufficiency remains a kulture, regardless of the absence of comforting cultural images reflecting the reverse? ironically, kulture is often what 'the arts' are all about, albeit from the safety of retrospection, and typically viewed within the context of prestigious, vaste buildings, usually promoting national heroism, cultural leadership, and (supposed) example.

so, typically, an easy set of ideas to conflate, and the conflation conspicuously serves some, more than others. as does typically confused/ing coverage as regards the role of the eu, by both the uk media, and uk politicians alike, as well as the eu itself.

i am much more interested in what might actually happen if we left the eu - in terms of democratic, and human rights, equal opps, minimum wage, etc as well as the implications for all european economies. do i gather that leaving the eu wont affect these aspects of uk life and kulture? or, is it simply that a currency is easier to discuss, even though it amounts to speculation, and seems to be up to one person - despite the eu being a union, implying a democratic, shared responsibility in decision-making?

[scottycelt]

Oh dear, I knew I shouldn't have added that last comment. I agree that Scotland was probably more influenced by its European neighbours & trading partners across the North Sea than England was by its closest neighbour across the Channel, and indeed probably had more influence on them than England did on its nearest neighbour. I'm not so certain that Scottish Baronial shows any continental influence (although I did see a 19th century 'castle' at the weekend that displayed a curious mix of Scottish baronial, Bavarian castle as built by Ludwig, Transylvanian castle & French Loir chateau - http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3599/...d6bd732a25.jpg). Alexander Thomson took motifs from Egypt & India as much as from Classical Greece - http://www.scotcities.com/qpchurch_tower.jpg & http://www.scotcities.com/stvincent_tops.jpg

I'll let you off this time, Floss ...

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

a sane view of the greek situation

[John Skelton]

"Those who argued against British membership of the euro never pretended that staying out would make for an easy life. Instead, they argued that a one-size-fits-all monetary policy would lead to instability not stability; that there would be growing divergence rather than convergence among the members; that economic failure would give rise to widespread austerity; that what was being created was not a workers' Europe but a bankers' Europe, and that what was being proposed would turn out to be both profoundly undemocratic and unprogressive. They said that a common monetary policy would be too loose for an economy prone to asset-price bubbles, and would create the conditions for a colossal boom-bust. All these predications have been borne out ... Countries on the periphery of the eurozone tended to have higher costs and to be less productive than those at the core. But a common, low interest rate allowed them to disguise their weaknesses with asset-price booms. The absence of any controls on capital – removed as part of the process of setting up monetary union – meant the trade surpluses generated by the stronger economies were re-cycled into Mediterranean property speculation. The inevitable bust led to enormous financial difficulties not just for the banks that had lent the money but for the governments that stood behind them.

The lack of real labour market mobility and the inadequacy of Europe's mechanism for shifting resources from rich to poor parts of the eurozone have ensured that the cost of economic failure has been high. Youth unemployment is approaching 50% in Spain, and above 40% in Greece."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/economics-blog/2011/nov/13/euro-breakup-would-avoid-crisis

[aeolium]

a sane view of the greek situation

I don't think it is a sane one, Calum. It ignores the fundamental problems in the set up of the eurozone, problems which will not go away even if countries are bailed out. See the article I referred to in my earlier message 65. The only possible ways of resolving those problems as far as I can see are either a complete fiscal union which would represent a major loss of sovereignty by the smaller countries to the economically dominant ones within the zone, or a break-up leading to a two-tier zone. In all this it seems as though the currency is being considered as an end in itself, rather than a means to an end.

[Serial_Apologist]

I don't think it is a sane one, Calum. It ignores the fundamental problems in the set up of the eurozone, problems which will not go away even if countries are bailed out. See the article I referred to in my earlier message 65. The only possible ways of resolving those problems as far as I can see are either a complete fiscal union which would represent a major loss of sovereignty by the smaller countries to the economically dominant ones within the zone, or a break-up leading to a two-tier zone. In all this it seems as though the currency is being considered as an end in itself, rather than a means to an end.

A two-tier zone with the exiled currencies devalued would advantage those within the Eurozone in trade terms with the former group. As far as I can see there is no easy way out; long-term I would hope for repatterned trade links worldwide, with Britain linking up with the "defectors" to seek to increase the volume of trade with countries such as Brazil and Argentina.