The Euro: Dead

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

what an excellent idea Mahlerei ... we should all start guffawing with laughter every time any political leader stands up to speak and ask who is paying him to utter such trite tosh ....

[Mahlerei]

Well, 'tis the season to be jolly.

BREAKING NEWS

The turkeys have just voted for Christmas....

[Flosshilde]

There is a cultural difference (party evolved due to differences of climate) between northern and southern Europe .......

So how much of Europe would you like to see forming the European Community? If you think that 'cultural differences' should determine it (or 'cultural similarities') & the southern countries should not join, then that would mean Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece; Turkey would certainly not be allowed to join. How about the Eastern European states? & I would question the cultural similarity of the UK to Germany & France. So perhaps the EC should simply be Germany & France, perhaps with a 'fringe EC'.

(& some, especially in France, might wonder how similar the South of France is to the North)

[aeolium]

being in favour of the Euro isn't just to do with where I would like to work !
Being out of it does put us at a considerable disadvantage as my own (and others ) experience confirms
but unlike our politicians I tend NOT to run my life (and decide what work to do ) based on narrow self interest

What I find strange is the way the discussion re the Euro tends to revert to the UK rather than looking at the experience of countries in the eurozone - i.e. imagining what might happen rather than reviewing what has happened. All the weaker eurozone countries are now suffering desperately; they cannot devalue the currency or alter their interest rates; they are effectively directed by the EU and the IMF as to what economic policy they should follow. The currency is still fairly strong against many world currencies and therefore it is more difficult to attract tourists, yet rates are low and debts high so it is difficult to attract inward investment. The narrative goes that the problems in those countries have all been down to economic mismanagement, not following the EU rules, overspending etc but in fact most of the eurozone countries including Germany and France flouted the EU Stability and Growth Pact and having low interest rates made it easy for countries to borrow money in the period before the crash. Being in the eurozone has not been beneficial for some of these countries, and now is a real problem. In contrast, Iceland which had a catastrophic financial and economic crisis, is now in recovery, with growth ahead of eurozone countries. Rather than making sweeping statements about what might happen in the future, what about looking at the evidence about what has happened in the past, and is happening now?

[John Skelton]

And why, if they're being bullied so unfairly/mercilessly, has Europe agreed to slash their debt by 50%? That's consensus and compromise, concepts that you seem to deride and disparage.

And you seem to be incapable of discussing something without throwing abuse about. So I'll not bother anymore.

[MrGongGong]

So how much of Europe would you like to see forming the European Community? If you think that 'cultural differences' should determine it (or 'cultural similarities') & the southern countries should not join, then that would mean Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece; Turkey would certainly not be allowed to join. How about the Eastern European states? & I would question the cultural similarity of the UK to Germany & France. So perhaps the EC should simply be Germany & France, perhaps with a 'fringe EC'.

(& some, especially in France, might wonder how similar the South of France is to the North)

It's really not up to me you know
Though considering culture would be a good thing IMV
If you take music as a reflection of society (with a nod to Christopher Small ) would you not think that the UK has a culture close to Germany and France ?
Or food ?

Who drained the Fens ? Who did the stained glass in our Cathedrals etc etc
One thing that the EU can contribute is cultural distinctiveness rather than homogenisation (food being the obvious example )

[greenilex]

As a committed internationalist, I am theoretically in favour of supra-national groupings such as the European Union. If we can learn to cope with medium-sized groupings, we might one day be able to handle being part of a real planet-wide system of government....but people whose money depends on fragmentation, war and unfettered competition are never going to agree.

That is the reason we have to present people with a real alternative, which might save us from a grisly future.

[Flosshilde]

It's really not up to me you know
Though considering culture would be a good thing IMV
If you take music as a reflection of society (with a nod to Christopher Small ) would you not think that the UK has a culture close to Germany and France ?
Or food ?

Who drained the Fens ? Who did the stained glass in our Cathedrals etc etc
One thing that the EU can contribute is cultural distinctiveness rather than homogenisation (food being the obvious example )

Well, you did say that in your view Spain shouldn't have been a member of the EU, so I was simply asking which other countries you thought shouldn't be in.

I did think of saying that by 'culture' I wasn't referring to art, but I didn't think it was neccessary - I was clearly wrong. Culture includes many things (as I'm sure you know), & I think that in many of those we don't have a great deal in common with the rest of Europe. Our last real cultural influences from Europe ended in the mid 14th century - from then a distinctive English culture emerged. (Scotland, of course, had rather fewer external cultural influences until James VI became king of England)

[MrGongGong]

Well, you did say that in your view Spain shouldn't have been a member of the EU, so I was simply asking which other countries you thought shouldn't be in.

erm I didn't say that , I said that
"If it were on offer, an "EU" that stopped at the Spanish border would have been a good option but that's not the deal"

meaning that a different division of Europe into North and South would reflect cultures more BUT that's not on offer
which is not saying that Spain shouldn't be in the EU as it is


this is bizarre though

Our last real cultural influences from Europe ended in the mid 14th century

not to my ears !

I'm not a great Elgar enthusiast but .............. have a listen

[Flosshilde]

I repeat

I did think of saying that by 'culture' I wasn't referring to art, but I didn't think it was neccessary - I was clearly wrong

By 'culture' I was referring to all the things that make up daily life, and our attitudes to life, work, the state, authority etc etc.

Whether Elgar was - or wasn't - influenced by what was going on in the rest of Europe, musically, is irrelevant - just as irrelevant as citing British film-makers who are influenced by Hollywood as a reason for suggesting that the UK should enter into a monetary union with the USA, or that because the British have a passion for curry we should enter into a monetary union with India.

But to return to the Euro - I'm sure that it will rise from its death-bed, but I rather hope that in time someone might put a stake through its heart.

[MrGongGong]

So basically you are saying that culture is irrelevant ?
That's more or less what Dave and his chums think as well......... the price of everything and the value of nothing
I'm sure you don't mean that ?

[scottycelt]

Well, you did say that in your view Spain shouldn't have been a member of the EU, so I was simply asking which other countries you thought shouldn't be in.

I did think of saying that by 'culture' I wasn't referring to art, but I didn't think it was neccessary - I was clearly wrong. Culture includes many things (as I'm sure you know), & I think that in many of those we don't have a great deal in common with the rest of Europe. Our last real cultural influences from Europe ended in the mid 14th century - from then a distinctive English culture emerged. (Scotland, of course, had rather fewer external cultural influences until James VI became king of England)

What utter nonsense. Floss!

Scotland had a thriving relationship with European countries long before James VI of Scotland became James I of England & Ireland, the most glaringly obvious being the famous Auld Alliance with France which is still recognised today by many Frenchmen and women as visiting Scots to that country will readily testify. Scottish Baronial architecture is most obviously inspired by continental influences, not to mention the great churches and buildings designed by the now rather ironically nick-named 'Greek' Thomson. Anyone walking down the Royal Mile in Edinburgh might occasionally imagine they were suddenly transported to a typical town thoroughfare somewhere delightfully quaint in Northern Europe.

As for the UK itself, it has always been deeply involved in and influenced by events on the continent. It is as much a part of European culture as France and Germany or any other country in the EU, whether many of its people are aware of it or not.

[teamsaint]

i though that the 50% was an attempt to stave of something much worse .... a chaotic total default ....

it is hard to come to any views given the sloppy media accounts of what is going on and so from some ignorance i suggest

whatever is going on that is problematic the resolution that will do us any good does not include more of the same, no matter how much better cheaper faster or smarter ... i suspect we need a qualitatively different approach ...

Cameron Merkel Sarkozy Berlusconi Obama etx are busted flushes .... they are electorally vulnerable, most facing imminent election campaigns .... in consequence they mouth platitudes and will not collaborate nor take effective action ... since any resolution, same or different, is going to be tough [and will only appear benign in contrast to the trouble if nowt is done] i expect deep trouble and then resolution of a sort ... or war - noticed how Iran is creping up the news lately?

tent cities and soup kitchens may be the future as a way of living rather than protest ... we can all watch our repossessed homes being bundled and sold in the derivatives markets ...

feel free to join my "not very thriving" thread on this. They don't even pause for breath between countries now.

I am really worried about this. somebody somewhere wants financial and political breakdown, so that the world can be reborn in their image. And people like cameron do their work.

[John Skelton]

It may be my obtuseness, or it may be my shocking antipathy to compromise and consensus, but I still don't see what a conversation about European culture, lovely though the Thing probably is, has to do with the Euro and the crisis in the Eurozone. Unless the EU is intent on 'rescuing' Greece out of a deep love for Homer, Sophocles, Plato and Aristotle. In which case, perhaps Jean-Luc Godard's suggestion that the Greeks invented logic so every time anyone uses the word 'therefore' they should pay €100 (or whatever sum he suggested) to be donated to the Greeks is a runner.

Meanwhile, have contributors read Mario Blejer's take on this?

Mario Blejer, who managed Argentina’s central bank in the aftermath of the world’s biggest sovereign default, said Greece should halt payments on its debt to stop a deterioration of the economy that threatens the European Union.

“It doesn’t make sense to give money to Greece so Greece can pay the Germans back,” Blejer said when asked about the aid programs. “All these projects, all the euro projects don’t make sense economically.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-13/greece-should-default-big-to-address-debt-woes-argentina-s-blejer-says.html

[vinteuil]

I suppose I do feel 'European'...

Tho' when it comes to hard politics - if we follow the thinking of our more 'United States of Europe' enthusiasts - I am interested in how people will think - once there is a unified tax and therefore political system - about a natural consequence, namely a unified military - who will decide when to send a 'European Army' in to fight / defend ?? Will it be the case that the (previously) British - French - German - Dutch - Swedish electorate will be sufficiently 'agreeable' to the decision to put our men and women in harm's way to inflict damage on an agreed 'enemy' ??