The Euro: Dead

[french frank]

The bullying of Greece by, primarily, Merkel & Sarkozy (or Merkozy, as I've seen them called in the Herald today) because the Prime Minister had the temerity to suggest that the Greek people should be able to have a say in what was happening too them, & not simply follow the dictates of the big two, is apalling.

Not sure about that. Aren't the options to take the money on the terms they're being offered or to refuse the money and take the consequences? A referendum on the terms of the deal seems a bit like saying we want your money but we want to carry on as we were before.

[MrGongGong]

Who likes the EU ?

people who like cheese, forced rhubarb, Melton pork pies, the smokie producers of Arbroath, the members of many cultural organisations who see it as an opportunity for exchange and cultural development ............... people in remote places who have their communities connected with EU funding

[Serial_Apologist]

And remember that wherever the IMF has been sent the begging bowl, it has imposed cuts in public spending, privatisation and debts to come...

[teamsaint]

people who like cheese, forced rhubarb, Melton pork pies, the smokie producers of Arbroath, the members of many cultural organisations who see it as an opportunity for exchange and cultural development ............... people in remote places who have their communities connected with EU funding

you can do cultural exchange perfectly well without massive government organisations.
As for people in remote areas being connected........if that is done with with EU money then it hasn't reached the bus services in the UK !!!!

Anyway,I like Rhubarb of all sorts, but not the EU, so you are deffo wrong !!!!!

[MrGongGong]

There's plenty wrong with aspects of the EU
but without designated status the diversity of food culture would be much diminished
far from being a force of homogenisation the EU has (where countries have bothered to use it !) ensured the diversity or regional foods
without EU protection and funding there would be no Cantal cheese and probably NO Yorkshire forced rhubarb

the UK has always been, at best, lukewarm about the EU which is very sad IMV

[scottycelt]

My view is that Britain has completely missed the bus on this. For years it has had one foot in, one foot out, and then has the nerve to turn down an invitation to the party, but still have a say in what music is played.

If Britain had fully embraced Europe, it would definitely not by now, be a junior player. With its potentially strong and robust economy, entrepreneurial credentials that are embedded, it would be quite arguably, be THE major player in a united Europe.

Let's not forget - that if nothing else, the Common Market, EEC, EC and now EU, has been a binding force for good, in that the major "old" powers have not gone to war, internal politics based on democracy have been upheld; this has to be a good thing..

That says it all for me ... if previous opportunities had been grasped the UK could well have been in a very powerful position by now and conceivably been 'The Chairman' of an United Europe.

The main problem, as I see it, is getting some people in the UK (and most of our popular press) to realise that the First World War happened almost a century ago and the Second is not far behind.

The world now bears little resemblance to what it was just 25 years ago, never mind 50, 75, or 100!

[scottycelt]

And remember that wherever the IMF has been sent the begging bowl, it has imposed cuts in public spending, privatisation and debts to come...

A bit like the bank manager when any individual gets into debt ... the way of the world I'm afraid

Surely you wouldn't expect someone to lend you some of their money without imposing conditions?

[Chris Newman]

My view is that Britain has completely missed the bus on this. For years it has had one foot in, one foot out, and then has the nerve to turn down an invitation to the party, but still have a say in what music is played.

If Britain had fully embraced Europe, it would definitely not by now, be a junior player. With its potentially strong and robust economy, entrepreneurial credentials that are embedded, it would be quite arguably, be THE major player in a united Europe.

Let's not forget - that if nothing else, the Common Market, EEC, EC and now EU, has been a binding force for good, in that the major "old" powers have not gone to war, internal politics based on democracy have been upheld; this has to be a good thing.

We have to be visionary, and know that a Europe based on small, nations, all jostling for their "say" is no longer the reality - togetherness and some sort of union is what is needed. We are not the Europe of the '30s and '40s. Modern technology, communications, ease of travel, etc have changed all of that.

Absolutely. We have sat on the edge of the swimming pool expecting the swimmers to throw us the ball whilst hoping that if they do we can do a runner with it. Now that things have become difficult (a World failing not just European) we stand on the side and mock them. Britain will take while it can but does not like to help.

[teamsaint]

A bit like the bank manager when any individual gets into debt ... the way of the world I'm afraid

Surely you wouldn't expect someone to lend you some of their money without imposing conditions?

Except that the worlds biggest financial institutions like nothing more than getting countries and organisations into massive debt. After all that is they way to control them.

And questions need asking about what happens to the borrowed money.....often goes on approved projects.......approved by the world bank, IMF etc.

Economic and financial slavery imposed by the powerful on the weak.

[Flosshilde]

Except that the worlds biggest financial institutions like nothing more than getting countries and organisations into massive debt. After all that is they way to control them.

And questions need asking about what happens to the borrowed money.....often goes on approved projects.......approved by the world bank, IMF etc.

Economic and financial slavery imposed by the powerful on the weak.

Quite - the involvement of the IMF & the World Bank in a country's economy is curtains for any fiscal autonomy - there are strict conditions applied that are favourable to the bigger economic powers (eg, any equipment needed has to be purchased from designated companies), & the same thing is happening with the Euro.

I'm afraid Mr GG's problems with working in Euro countries is not a satisfactory argument for the UK being in the Eurozone.

Absolutely. We have sat on the edge of the swimming pool expecting the swimmers to throw us the ball whilst hoping that if they do we can do a runner with it. Now that things have become difficult (a World failing not just European) we stand on the side and mock them. Britain will take while it can but does not like to help.

Goodness - first parties, now swimming pools - how many other metaphors can we come up with?

[MrGongGong]

Maybe not Floss
but it does put UK businesses at a massive disadvantage when most of our trade is with the Eurozone countries
I can perfectly understand why many EU countries are so fed up with the UK
do we want to do business or not ?

the UK seems to only be able to see things in terms of short term profit margins rather than in long term cultural terms that matter far more in the big scheme of things

[John Skelton]

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2011/11/would-european-capital-sacrifice-greece.html

(the referendum has been shelved and Papandreou has won a confidence vote since Richard Seymour's piece was written, of course).

[aeolium]

I think there is some risk of confusion here between discussing the merits of the EU (and Britain's role in it) and discussing the merits of the Euro (and whether or not Britain should be/should have been in it) - these are quite separate issues. The thread is about the Euro.

I think the Euro was badly designed and implemented, in that it involved joining up countries in a single currency union even though they were at very different stages of economic development, and some economies were much stronger than others. With a single central bank which set interest rates at the level of the stronger economies, it opened up the dangers of excessive borrowing - at low interest rates - by weaker economies within the eurozone. Equally if the currency was itself strong relative to other currencies it was not possible for weaker economies to devalue to increase competitiveness (e.g. for tourism in southern European countries where it is a significant part of the economy). Also, unlike in other currency unions such as sterling and dollar, there is no facility for the central bank to assist weaker economies if they get into serious difficulty, and there is no fiscal union - equalisation of tax rates etc. This means that the difference in the strengths of individual economies within the eurozone is likely to be exaggerated rather than reduced. For the currency union to work properly, it needs a full fiscal union and a much greater surrender of sovereignty by the individual member countries. I don't think that the electorates in those countries are prepared for that major surrender of sovereignty and the problem that national politicians would always face is that they are answerable to their national electorates - even though the power would under a real fiscal currency union be effectively removed from them.

That's why I am relieved that the UK is not in the Euro, and why I think it is more likely than not that one or more countries will leave the Eurozone in the coming years. The Euro will not die, but the fundamental flaw in the design of the Euro can only be remedied by having a full fiscal union, and I don't think electorates are prepared to accept it.

[Mahlerei]

I hope very much that this eurozone crisis is just a rite of passage, and that the single currency emerges stronger than ever. This is all part of the great European experiment, a broad consensus trying to make the system work. Britain merely sits at home, waiting for post cards from Brussels. Davy deludes himself if he thinks we have real influence there. Very telliNg, his unguarded conversation with Obama at the G20.

[decantor]

Fascinating discussion. But how come there are 29 postings without mention of the four elephants in the room? Viz:

1) The appalling democratic deficit in the EU - no wonder it's unpopular and mistrusted, and seen as a lucrative sinecure for failed national politicians
2) Britain is one of a very small band of net contributors to the EU - no wonder it's unpopular in UK, especially when it imposes so much on us that's unwanted
3) UK's wealth was hopelessly squandered in the New Labour years - it's left us weak when we could have been at least reasonably strong
4) Europe's most prosperous nations (Norway, Switzerland) have remained firmly on the outside of the behemoth: there might be a lesson in that

BIG elephants! I don't believe we can or should get divorced from the EU. But I do think a lot needs re-thinking, and fast, before we cosy up any closer. The Euro, even if it survives, has much to prove before we can contemplate cashing in our sterling.