The Euro: Dead

[Flosshilde]

I hope very much that this eurozone crisis is just a rite of passage, and that the single currency emerges stronger than ever. This is all part of the great European experiment, a broad consensus trying to make the system work. Britain merely sits at home, waiting for post cards from Brussels. Davy deludes himself if he thinks we have real influence there. Very telliNg, his unguarded conversation with Obama at the G20.

But the 'European experiment' doesn't need the Euro to work - it managed perfectly well for quite a while without it. Fiscal union would be a disaster - one only has to look at how the economkic policies of UK government suit the strong economy of the South East of England, to the detriment of other areas of the UK, to see how European fiscal union would work.

[John Skelton]

Absolutely: it bewilders me how people who on other issues, crucially including austerity measures in the UK, situate themselves on a broad 'Left' are so keen on an impressionistically invoked "great European experiment" without any apparent concern at what the social and political underpinnings of fiscal union would be. Not a whisper: it's a Good Thing because it's European. And it disappoints me that the only people in the mainstream who go to the trouble to point out the "democratic deficit" in the EU are generally on the Right. Where the EU is concerned it would be folly to wonder what the populations of European countries might want, the argument seems to run: like the Greeks, do as you are told for the Greater Good.

This book http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=k...page&q&f=false is well worth reading, IMO.

[scottycelt]

You would think the way some talk that every country within the EU had been forced to join or have no power of national veto! Of course the EU will have its faults, just like the different democratic processes of the individual member-countries, but these shortcomings are dwarfed by the astounding achievement of finally bringing former constantly warring nations together in ever-increasing union and harmony to create the largest trading bloc in the world. No wonder the USA and now China suddenly take a keen interest in Europe's affairs! Never has the slogan 'United We Stand, Divided We Fall' been more starkly true than in the case of modern Europe

The current sovereign crisis does not demonstrate that the Euro was a bad idea but merely that it is not yet nearly good enough. The Euro-sceptics were at least partly correct when they pointed out that fiscal union (inevitably and eventually leading to greater political integration) would be the end result of the Euro ... absolutely, and as everyone, apart from Euro-phobes, can now see, the sooner the better!

The Euro is an integral part of the ongoing process (sometimes bumpy) towards an United States of Europe. The longer the UK stands shivering on the pool edge (sorry!) before she is eventually forced to jump to save herself, the less influence she will have in deciding the future structure of this huge and historic enterprise.

[MrGongGong]

Fascinating discussion. But how come there are 29 postings without mention of the four elephants in the room? Viz:

1) The appalling democratic deficit in the EU - no wonder it's unpopular and mistrusted, and seen as a lucrative sinecure for failed national politicians
2) Britain is one of a very small band of net contributors to the EU - no wonder it's unpopular in UK, especially when it imposes so much on us that's unwanted
3) UK's wealth was hopelessly squandered in the New Labour years - it's left us weak when we could have been at least reasonably strong
4) Europe's most prosperous nations (Norway, Switzerland) have remained firmly on the outside of the behemoth: there might be a lesson in that

BIG elephants! I don't believe we can or should get divorced from the EU. But I do think a lot needs re-thinking, and fast, before we cosy up any closer. The Euro, even if it survives, has much to prove before we can contemplate cashing in our sterling.

Som thoughts on these 4 things

1) We also have an "appalling democratic deficit" in the UK, we have a government who have no mandate to do the things they are doing. One has to decide what one means (and wants) from "democracy" there's much wrong with the EU ,
2) What does the EU impose on us that is really "unwanted" ? when challenged about what powers they want "returned" the Tory eurosceptics never seem to come up with any ? Instead of seeing the contributions as a cost we should maybe treat it as an investment and get more involved in what we are investing in ?
3) That's an opinion rather than a fact (and I'm no supporter of the last government) , its a bit of a mantra that will get repeated over and over
4) There is a big difference between Northern and Southern Europe, I would be most happy to have Scandinavian levels of public services and Tax (and investment in culture and wellbeing ) but I doubt most folk would agree. If it were on offer, an "EU" that stopped at the Spanish border would have been a good option but that's not the deal is !

The Sovereignty stuff that people go on about so much is largely a red herring (Craster Kippers would have gone without the EU ) we have given much of are "sovereignty" over to large multinational corporations. If the choice was between well educated intelligent Germans or the public school buffoons we have in charge now I know who I would rather choose.

[aeolium]

And it disappoints me that the only people in the mainstream who go to the trouble to point out the "democratic deficit" in the EU are generally on the Right. Where the EU is concerned it would be folly to wonder what the populations of European countries might want, the argument seems to run: like the Greeks, do as you are told for the Greater Good.

I quite agree. It is as if The Project which EU politicians have in mind is an end in itself, and if need be whole countries should be sacrificed to keep it on track. There is no concern for the real suffering it is causing in individual countries, and there seems to be no willingness to discover whether the populations in member countries want to go down that road - in fact the reverse.

The Euro-sceptics were at least partly correct when they pointed out that fiscal union (inevitably and eventually leading to greater political integration) would be the end result of the Euro ... absolutely, and as everyone can now see the sooner the better!

No - it would not be better. The recent crisis has shown how the national leaders of each country were manoeuvring to extract from a settlement what could satisfy their own Parliaments and electorates. That would be a permanent feature of any fiscal union, leading to enormous tensions and arguably threatening the integrity of the EU as a whole - always assuming that member countries could persuade their electorates to accept fiscal union, which I seriously doubt.

[scottycelt]

It might also be pointed out that countries like Norway and Switzerland (as if the UK has ever been previously compared to such countries!) have special agreements with the EU in which they contribute to EU bodies despite being officially non-members.

In other words Norway and Switzerland have to accept much the same realities and conditions as everyone else but have virtually no influence or voting rights in any decision-making directly affecting themselves.

Absurd!

[John Skelton]

The Euro-sceptics were at least partly correct when they pointed out that fiscal union (inevitably and eventually leading to greater political integration) would be the end result of the Euro ... absolutely, and as everyone, apart from Euro-phobes, can now see, the sooner the better!

It is possible not to be a "Euro-phobe" while opposing fiscal union based on the logic of the IMF and the European Central Bank, with its "need to establish effective macro-prudential surveillance frameworks." http://www.ecb.int/press/key/date/20...1104_1.en.html

"The Sovereignty stuff that people go on about so much is largely a red herring (Craster Kippers would have gone without the EU ) we have given much of are "sovereignty" over to large multinational corporations. If the choice was between well educated intelligent Germans or the public school buffoons we have in charge now I know who I would rather choose."

Oh I completely agree - the Sovereignty issue is a red herring. Do you honestly believe that EU policy stands in opposition to the interests of "large multinational corporations" or financial bodies? As for ridiculous stereotypes about "well educated intelligent Germans" - that's like reading 'Eurosceptic' frothings through a looking glass.

[MrGongGong]

OK John that was a bit of a simplification but the point is that one should try and get the best expertise ....and I find it hard to have any trust for Cameron and his chums

One problem in the UK is that we have NO politicians who are positive about the EU , the ones that might be are so tied to their parties that they never have any real impact. Being positive about it does not mean that one thinks that EVERYTHING it does is great.

[Mahlerei]

My point about the survival of the euro is that it's emblematic of the union as a whole, and working to save it and stabilise the Eurozone is in itself a valuable exercise in co-operation and consensus. Look, the EU is far from perfect but I believe it has great potential. In that spirit I would not be averse to fiscal integration.

[Flosshilde]

If it were on offer, an "EU" that stopped at the Spanish border would have been a good option but that's not the deal is ! [sic]

That seems to contradict your earlier argument in favour of the Euro Presumably you're not interested in working in Spain?

[John Skelton]

Being positive about it does not mean that one thinks that EVERYTHING it does is great.

But as aeolium points out in #28, the thread is specifically about the Euro and by implication a common European fiscal policy, and that's not a minor piece of decoration on the European Union edifice (I've caught metaphoritus as well ). In this case it's important, surely, to see what sort of expertise is involved, what the intellectual and political character of that expertise is, and what it implies for economic and political policy across Europe. And, admittedly simplifying, what it (stronger than) implies is consolidation of a neo-liberal economic project as 'reality'. It puzzles me that you seem happy to support European fiscal integration while complaining that "we have a government who have no mandate to do the things they are doing." Well, broadly the things they are doing are the things that the European Central Bank (and the IMF) would see done. A European-wide implementation of that would have even less of a mandate; and, importantly, would be even more difficult to oppose. Again, it would be part of 'reality' (like so-called market forces).

As for mahlerei's co-operation and consensus: to many Greeks I think it looks like ultimatum and instruction.

[Mahlerei]

John

Greece elected to join the club, fully aware of its obligations to the Eurozone. And why, if they're being bullied so unfairly/mercilessly, has Europe agreed to slash their debt by 50%? That's consensus and compromise, concepts that you seem to deride and disparage.

[MrGongGong]

That seems to contradict your earlier argument in favour of the Euro Presumably you're not interested in working in Spain?

being in favour of the Euro isn't just to do with where I would like to work !
Being out of it does put us at a considerable disadvantage as my own (and others ) experience confirms
but unlike our politicians I tend NOT to run my life (and decide what work to do ) based on narrow self interest

There is a cultural difference (party evolved due to differences of climate) between northern and southern Europe .......

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

i though that the 50% was an attempt to stave of something much worse .... a chaotic total default ....

it is hard to come to any views given the sloppy media accounts of what is going on and so from some ignorance i suggest

whatever is going on that is problematic the resolution that will do us any good does not include more of the same, no matter how much better cheaper faster or smarter ... i suspect we need a qualitatively different approach ...

Cameron Merkel Sarkozy Berlusconi Obama etx are busted flushes .... they are electorally vulnerable, most facing imminent election campaigns .... in consequence they mouth platitudes and will not collaborate nor take effective action ... since any resolution, same or different, is going to be tough [and will only appear benign in contrast to the trouble if nowt is done] i expect deep trouble and then resolution of a sort ... or war - noticed how Iran is creping up the news lately?

tent cities and soup kitchens may be the future as a way of living rather than protest ... we can all watch our repossessed homes being bundled and sold in the derivatives markets ...

[Mahlerei]

calum

You're a bundle of laughs this morning :)