Radio 3 dying

[EnemyoftheStoat]

For goodness sake, name names!! Perlease!!

Yes, presumably a presenter getting out of his/her depth?

[EricB]

Taking away choice doesn't woo the listeners

I fear that the decline in Radio 3’s classical audience stems directly from the BBC’s abandoning its unique selling proposition and trying to imitate Classic FM.

In earlier years, R3 broadcast complete works, intelligently and informatively introduced. My radio stayed tuned to it, and there was rarely cause to switch over. As a result, my tastes and knowledge were broadened, and I became hooked for life.

Now, one wakes up to the Break-cerpt show, comprising single movements taken out of context, even when the context is itself a relatively short work. The introduction rarely tells one much about the music – indeed it often follows the snippet that’s been played. Although R3 does not play commercial adverts, it is full of advertisements for upcoming programmes, some of them for broadcasts six days ahead (and repeated ad nauseam). Since modern radios are capable of playing CDs or accepting iPod input, it is very easy to switch over. This means that R3 is no longer building a new audience, and will inevitably suffer decline if existing listeners drift away.

The sad thing is that I’ve seen it all before, on the KFAC station in Los Angeles in the late 1970s. This was a time when “Classical radio” was successful in the USA, and KFAC had once been a major force in the cultural life of southern California. Then they made attempts to appeal to a younger audience, and started broadcasting “the best bits.” At the same time, the local public radio station, KUSC, began playing full works (as well as excellent speech programmes from NPR). KFAC then went into decline, and in 1989, the owners generously gave their call sign to their competitor (KUSC was the station of the University of Southern California).

I grew up in a fairly music-free household – there were 78s of Tchaikovsky and Gilbert & Sullivan, but the only LPs were very much what one might hear on Housewife’s Choice.

Then I discovered the Third Programme and Network 3, which provided a wonderful education in “classical” music. Each work was introduced with information about it and its composer, and was listed in the Radio Times. Programmes could be very challenging, particularly those of the Invitation Concerts that featured contemporary works. The Third Programme used anniversaries (such as Mahler’s centenary in 1960) to revive the fortunes of neglected composers (yes, Mahler really was neglected at the time), and experimented with ideas like performing Obrecht’s Missa Fortuna Desperata in a liturgical context (1966). Radio 3 continued this pattern (for example with a broadcast of Cavalli’s Vespers in 1976).

It’s not all bad, of course, but special events like playing all available works by Bach, Beethoven or Mozart now appear as islands of excellence. The sad thing is that many of the presenters are extremely knowledgeable, witness Sara Mohr-Pietsch’s wonderful analysis of the Brandenburg concerti with the Academy of Ancient Music in 2011. It seems unlikely that they really want to play at being DJs rather than using their intelligence to foster better understanding of the art form they love.

[mercia]

repeated ad nauseam

reminiscent of opinions expressed on this subject

[Lateralthinking1]

Many are already familiar with NPR. Here are some other interesting sites to compare with R3. -

KUSC, as mentioned in post 32, in 2012 - http://www.kusc.org/

WCPE - http://www.wcpe.org/partners.shtml

ABC CFM Australia - http://www.abc.net.au/classic/conten...21/3395632.htm

New York Times article about the virtual disappearance of classical music from the US commercial sector in the last decade. An interesting thought perhaps about any long-term viability, or not, here. You never know, the traditional non-competitive Radio 3 could be back in 10 years. That is if everyone isn't on "classically trained apps" -

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/28/technology/personaltech/classical-music-apps-for-smartphones.html

[french frank]

reminiscent of opinions expressed on this subject

I wonder why?

Let's face it - R3 has lost its grip. The evidence of a lot of discontent is everywhere. Every time an article is published the response is virtually unanimous, and unsolicited letters tell the same story: Sunday Times, Times, Telegraph x 2, Daily Mail (for heaven's sake) x 2, Radio Times, Observer, Spectator, R3 blogs, R3 Facebook, Classical Music, Musical Opinion ...

"Radio 3 is becoming stupid". I think that matters. It matters as much - if not more - to the unknowledgeable as to the knowledgeable.

And those who don't like the message can as much as they like

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Thank you and welcome, EricB; your views and experiences correspond with many of my own, but I didn't know about KFAC. I'm glad, too, that you mentioned SM-P's splendid Discovering Music on the "Brandenburgs" - she is a very skilled and intelligent woman as listeners to Hear & Now will testify. Why she adopts her Breakfast persona is a matter of some considerable regret.

[jayne lee wilson]

Sad to note how little I listen to it; I once used to go around calling it things like "jewel of the nation" (ah, sins of youth) and promoting it to anyone who'd listen...

The loyalty, the sense of belonging, has gone hasn't it; to the extent that one doesn't always make time for live concerts when they look interesting...

A role for Radio 3 in our multiple, media-saturated world...? Oh dear! But it has to start with being serious, thoroughly knowledgeable and never embarrassed to be - but wearing it lightly, "expert" in the old sense - remembering the basic principle of Public Service Broadcasting - "giving people something they didn't know they wanted."

IIRC, it was John Walters (John Peel's producer) on Radio 1, talking to Janice Long mid-1980s, where I first heard that line!
Very funny individual who once opened a bank account for his cat... another story, another thread...

[french frank]

A role for Radio 3 in our multiple, media-saturated world...? Oh dear! But it has to start with being serious, thoroughly knowledgeable and never embarrassed to be - but wearing it lightly, "expert" in the old sense - remembering the basic principle of Public Service Broadcasting - "giving people something they didn't know they wanted."

On another thread I said that radio stations should allow people to switch off if a programme didn't appeal, not try desperately to stop them turning off. But with Radio 3 the deal is that they should always be broadcasting in that way that you describe: "being serious, thoroughly knowledgeable and never embarrassed to be - but wearing it lightly, "expert" in the old sense".

In other words, if someone doesn't want to listen to CotW on, say Berlioz, let them switch off. If they don't really like CotW no matter who the composer is, let them switch off. But no one could say that CotW isn't the kind of programme Radio 3 should be broadcasting.

What they are so often doing at the moment ought to embarrass them but apparently doesn't.

[Stillhomewardbound]

Up until about two years ago R3 was my constant companion, especially in the evenings when I was at my desk doing the things I was wanting to do, rather than the things my employer was paying me to do in the day.

So, it's a source of great sadness to me that I sit working so much now in silence.

It's a bit like, in my case, having to contend with a boyfriend to whom you were so close once, and now they've changed somehow.

You want to scream at him: 'What is this thing you are trying to be? Its not you. Why are you trying to be something else because you think it will make you more popular? Maybe for five seconds you'll have a bunch of new friends, but like butterflies they'll be away in an instant.'

Rado 3 - I liked you when you were YOU

[DublinJimbo]

I date the demise of R3 to Nicholas Kenyon's tenure. It was under his aegis that both Radio 3 and the Proms lost credibility and moved towards a crowd-pleasing mentality. The present controller is merely copper-fastening what NK began, egged on by the BBC Trust whose remit appears to be nothing but a PC-enforcing value-for-money approach which has totally lost sight of the extraordinary, unique and wonderful ethos of Radios 3's former glory.

Presenter after presenter; a schedule which slavishly repeats itself week after week without shift, change or variety; an approach to classical music which equates it to other musical "genres" whose mold it's being uncomfortably forced into; an attitude which apologises for classical music rather than celebrates it; a dumbing-down of the formerly amazing celebration of serious music which the Proms used to be (and for which they were the envy of every other national broadcast authority). In short, Nicholas Kenyon began it all, the Trust have continued it, and Roger Wright has reinforced it and made it into a pale reflection of Classic FM. How on earth could any government not only preside over this denigration of such a wonderful national institution but actively encourage it?

Britain has lost its lead. The baton has been passed to Denmark, Holland, Finland, Sweden -- name most other European countries and they now do it better than the BBC. That is sad. Fundamentally sad. BBC Radio 3 used be a beacon; now it's a damp squib.

[pmartel]

I feel compelled to write from what I've read on this based on my experience with our once beloved CBC Radio 2.

It is a truly sad state of affairs that the English speaking world of arts broadcasting seems to be following a road of 'dumbing down' arts broadcasting.

As many of you know from my postings about CBC, this was a slow process of change to an eventual sad one day final of broadcasting of FULL CLASSICAL programming.

That day was absolute torture for us hearing our favourite broadcasters signing off for the LAST TIME.

One of the programs we had here was a program called 'Disc Drive' with host Jurgen Gothe. An intelligent mix of classical music and conversation which was on for 18 years. On the last day of the show, he was so choked up with emotion he switched off the mike without saying good-bye

There was a massive protest on line and in the local papers, but to no avail. The powers that be decided FOR US what WE should be hearing.

Bear in mind that our tax dollars cover public broadcasting in this country and basically from what I've read it almost boils down to about just over .50 cents per day.

The protests, letter writing to the CRTC and CBC went unheard.

We believe the federal gov't here wants to kill public broadcasting in general.

The case for changing the old format of CBC Radio 2 was to attract 'a younger audience' I was in my early teens when I discovered the beauty of our national broadcaster.

Now I support an Ohio based NPR station. The owners of the station and I have become friends and truly feel like I have a say.

So, what am I saying here, The thread reads 'Is Radio 3 dying' Well, remember that there is power in #'s.

I would say to you that based on the experience we had PLEASE DON'T LET BBC R3 become 'Your 100 best tunes'

It is TOO VALUABLE an institution in the world to let it die.

I say, take back R3 if you can!!

[Pilchardman]

remember that there is power in #'s.

I'm keen on flats and naturals, too.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

In short, Nicholas Kenyon began it all, the Trust have continued it, and Roger Wright has reinforced it and made it into a pale reflection of Classic FM.

I agree that the deterioration began in the NK tenure, but I think your last point here greatly exaggerates the point to the detriment of your argument. In no way is R3 (yet!) a "pale reflection of ClassicFM": where on that station is Hear & Now, The Early Music Show, Music Matters, This Week's Composer, The Essay, [I]Jazz Library[/I Jazz Record Requests], World on 3, Late Junction, Night Waves Discovering Music ... err: okay, pass on that one! ... Live Concerts, THE PROMS, or the five regional Symphony Orchestras?

Yes, the station is a pale shadow of its former self; yes there are better presentations from Europe and on the Internet; yes we need to keep banging on to ensure that other programmes in my list don't go the way of Discovering Music. But to suggest that Classic FM is somehow superior in quality to the best of R3 does the credibility of your overall argument - and that of those of us who share your concerns - no favours at all.

Best Wishes.

[french frank]

Hear & Now, The Early Music Show, Music Matters, This Week's Composer, The Essay, [I]Jazz Library[/I Jazz Record Requests], World on 3, Late Junction, Night Waves Discovering Music ... err: okay, pass on that one! ... Live Concerts, THE PROMS, or the five regional Symphony Orchestras

That highlights what is sadly missing: the solid, unselfconsciously expert presentation of mainstream classical music. The assumption in this field is that that there are two audiences, no matter what the music: those who know everything (and they don't need to be catered for) and those who know nothing and who need quizzes, chat, short extracts, snippets of information from Wikipedia, tunes ...

People like me aren't either audience. I've been listening to R3 for maybe twenty years and there's masses and masses and masses that I know nothing about. But I don't want to be treated like a timid beginner who will run away if anyone mentions sonata form or D#. The current information light entertainment isn't at all what I want; nor is it what highly knowledgeable people want to fill in the 'inexplicable gaps' in their knowledge. I don't want Breakfast, I don't want Essential Classics, there's not a lot of horizon expanding stuff on Ao3 ... In Tune? ... And that doesn't leave a lot (which is why I've given up).

[teamsaint]

That highlights what is sadly missing: the solid, unselfconsciously expert presentation of mainstream classical music. The assumption in this field is that that there are two audiences, no matter what the music: those who know everything (and they don't need to be catered for) and those who know nothing and who need quizzes, chat, short extracts, snippets of information from Wikipedia, tunes ...

People like me aren't either audience. I've been listening to R3 for maybe twenty years and there's masses and masses and masses that I know nothing about. But I don't want to be treated like a timid beginner who will run away if anyone mentions sonata form or D#. The current information light entertainment isn't at all what I want; nor is it what highly knowledgeable people want to fill in the 'inexplicable gaps' in their knowledge. I don't want Breakfast, I don't want Essential Classics, there's not a lot of horizon expanding stuff on Ao3 ... In Tune? ... And that doesn't leave a lot (which is why I've given up).

you are spot on here. We all have areas of expertise, and areas where we lack knowledge.
I really enjoyed the Elgar 1 "discovering music" last week.......it was perfect for me at my current level. For others it would have been far too "Entry Level".
But there is no excuse for treating your audience like idiots.