An unlapsed catholic, i???

[vinteuil]

In the words of the Alan Bennett character -

" So I said nothing... "

[Mandryka]

I do pop in from time to time to see how you are behaving, amateur ...

The great attraction of Catholicism for myself (and presumably millions of others) is its total consistency and it's almost unique refusal to bow to the whims of secular fashion, however tempting and more socially comfortable for its members that would almost certainly be.

Feminism? Gay Rights? ... oh, those will rock the Church all right but it will remain steadfast and carry on just as before, because, as Mandryka so rightly says, it does so simply because it has to. That is its very mission.

I also love it's total classlessness. The rubbish collector is just as worthy in the eyes of the Church as the priest on the pulpit or indeed the Pope himself. Oh, because it consists of human beings it has undoubtedly many faults (obsessively documented by it's most vociferous opponents) but its basic teaching always remains the same ... and, hey, unlike secular society, the rules apply to everybody!

Lastly, I rather like the idea of men and women performing different roles. Every even half-intelligent man or woman knows the sexes are different and can contribute in separate ways. It's only modern secular liberalism (like Communism) that has brainwashed society to believe that both must be treated alike. The Protestant churches have largely capitulated with predictable results.

For all its human failings, the Catholic Church remains a rock of reason and stability surrounded by a vast swirling ocean of secular chaos and disintegration.

In short, it has (and always has had) quite a lot going for it ...

[ahinton]

Basically, when you go to a High Church service (I'm not saying Catholic on purpose because many High Anglican are higher than a local RC service) it is a beautifully staged piece of theatre. All in costume, sanctus bells, thurible, altar boys, servants of the sanctuary, fantastic music. It's all absolutely terribly wonderful and you just want to be part of this spectacle, be drawn in to the flamboyance and if you are seeking reassurance then it does seems that this is the one truth faith because it's so emotional and gripping.

Someone's been to Hereford Cathedral lately, it would seem; how do you like it now that all the refurbishment (for the time being, at least) has been completed?

[ahinton]

In the words of the Alan Bennett character -

" So I said nothing... "

Some might aver that there's more Gordon Bennett than Arnold Bennett in what it was to which, in the latter's character's words, you wisely "said nothing"...

[scottycelt]

Some might aver that there's more Gordon Bennett than Arnold Bennett in what it was to which, in the latter's character's words, you wisely "said nothing"...

Arnold? ... Gordon Bennett !!

[umslopogaas]

Thinking about the post that starts this thread, last night after a good deal of a bottle of Morrison's latest special offer red, I got so hot under the collar that I wrote out a diatribe, which I was wise enough to file until the cold light of morning, when I decided I was wise not to post it. Now I've had a bit more of Mr M.'s good stuff and I think I should post it after all. So I will, here goes.

Not sure where to begin, this thread rings all sorts of bells, some of whose clangour I’d prefer to shut out. My short answer is yes, you are having a nasty lapse, get a grip on yourself, the religious nasties have their knives out and you should resist. In the end, they only want your money to fund their church to fatten their paunches. The price? We will save your soul, brother, is it too much to ask? After all, a nice cheque now will mitigate the torments of hell, trust me, I can fix it so the demons wont shove their pitchforks in quite so far as they will into that unbeliever umslopogaas down the corridor. For a large enough donation I might even be able to gain the ear of His Holiness and obtain you some dispensation. But do not shrug me off, if we are good at dispensations, we are also good at inquisitions. Brother Fang, the night is yet young, have you got all the pliers? And the blow-torch is fully charged? Excellent, I think we can make a good case.

That was the short answer.

Now … the Catholic Church is a deistic, hierachical religion. The pope’s on the top of the heap and he’s got a personal, dedicated hot line to God, Who can save you from the torments of Hell, if He chooses. Hell, by the way, is invented by God. Whether or not he chooses to send us there, only God can tell, and we’ll only know if His Holiness tells us so. Nice little arrangement and I wish I’d thought of it. There were some smart monks, back there in the tempus mysterium.

I am a scientist, not a very good one, but I’m sort of aware in my more lucid periods that it’s also, in its way, a religion, in the sense that it addresses the unknowable with a system of knowledge. I would be the first to admit that science knows little and there is much to be done. But at least, science is based on some sense of reality. Religion, by contrast, can explain everything which science cannot, because science grapples with facts and religion throws them out of the window. Scientists engage with the knowable and the unknowable and are often defeated by both, there are things that we just cant understand because we don’t have the knowledge, and things we cant understand because we do have the knowledge, but it’s someone else’s and I haven’t got the keys to the filing cabinet.

But we have a good record on the mundane, just toast a slice of bread in your kitchen and I expect I can claim some credit for science, so maybe sometime soon we will shine light into those unclaimed corners. By contrast, religion grapples with the unknowable by throwing in the towel to God and asking him to ensure it’s freshly laundered next time it’s on my bed. Just give me a system that will fit onto this bit of cloth I call my life, Almighty, and make sure it’s clean. Easy really, God delivers a system of knowledge that is all-encompassing, all-knowing and all-embracing … we just have to bow down and accept it. Don’t worry about the details, the Jesuits will sort them out, Papa Popi will pay their wages.

Its gibberish. No, its worse, its deceitful gibberish and while it trumpets to the skies that it is dedicated to the higher glory of God, it’s actually built on human greed and the deep knowledge that the listeners to human despair have of human desperation. The Catholic Church is exploitative filth. Don’t hesitate, burn down the Vatican and every Catholic Church in the planet, but make sure you get the plate, its worth plenty. Those bastards sweated plenty of humanity to grab it, its time we grabbed it back. Try to preserve the Sistine Chapel ceiling from the flames, but not at any expense, we have plenty of photographic records and anyway, brushwork has moved on.

[scottycelt]

Thinking about the post that starts this thread, last night after a good deal of a bottle of Morrison's latest special offer red, I got so hot under the collar that I wrote out a diatribe, which I was wise enough to file until the cold light of morning, when I decided I was wise not to post it. Now I've had a bit more of Mr M.'s good stuff and I think I should post it after all. So I will, here goes.

Not sure where to begin, this thread rings all sorts of bells, some of whose clangour I’d prefer to shut out. My short answer is yes, you are having a nasty lapse, get a grip on yourself, the religious nasties have their knives out and you should resist. In the end, they only want your money to fund their church to fatten their paunches. The price? We will save your soul, brother, is it too much to ask? After all, a nice cheque now will mitigate the torments of hell, trust me, I can fix it so the demons wont shove their pitchforks in quite so far as they will into that unbeliever umslopogaas down the corridor. For a large enough donation I might even be able to gain the ear of His Holiness and obtain you some dispensation. But do not shrug me off, if we are good at dispensations, we are also good at inquisitions. Brother Fang, the night is yet young, have you got all the pliers? And the blow-torch is fully charged? Excellent, I think we can make a good case.

That was the short answer.

Now … the Catholic Church is a deistic, hierachical religion. The pope’s on the top of the heap and he’s got a personal, dedicated hot line to God, Who can save you from the torments of Hell, if He chooses. Hell, by the way, is invented by God. Whether or not he chooses to send us there, only God can tell, and we’ll only know if His Holiness tells us so. Nice little arrangement and I wish I’d thought of it. There were some smart monks, back there in the tempus mysterium.

I am a scientist, not a very good one, but I’m sort of aware in my more lucid periods that it’s also, in its way, a religion, in the sense that it addresses the unknowable with a system of knowledge. I would be the first to admit that science knows little and there is much to be done. But at least, science is based on some sense of reality. Religion, by contrast, can explain everything which science cannot, because science grapples with facts and religion throws them out of the window. Scientists engage with the knowable and the unknowable and are often defeated by both, there are things that we just cant understand because we don’t have the knowledge, and things we cant understand because we do have the knowledge, but it’s someone else’s and I haven’t got the keys to the filing cabinet.

But we have a good record on the mundane, just toast a slice of bread in your kitchen and I expect I can claim some credit for science, so maybe sometime soon we will shine light into those unclaimed corners. By contrast, religion grapples with the unknowable by throwing in the towel to God and asking him to ensure it’s freshly laundered next time it’s on my bed. Just give me a system that will fit onto this bit of cloth I call my life, Almighty, and make sure it’s clean. Easy really, God delivers a system of knowledge that is all-encompassing, all-knowing and all-embracing … we just have to bow down and accept it. Don’t worry about the details, the Jesuits will sort them out, Papa Popi will pay their wages.

Its gibberish. No, its worse, its deceitful gibberish and while it trumpets to the skies that it is dedicated to the higher glory of God, it’s actually built on human greed and the deep knowledge that the listeners to human despair have of human desperation. The Catholic Church is exploitative filth. Don’t hesitate, burn down the Vatican and every Catholic Church in the planet, but make sure you get the plate, its worth plenty. Those bastards sweated plenty of humanity to grab it, its time we grabbed it back. Try to preserve the Sistine Chapel ceiling from the flames, but not at any expense, we have plenty of photographic records and anyway, brushwork has moved on.

Have you tried the Waitrose Special Offer Red ... ?

[umslopogaas]

Och, ye Highlan' ninnie, dinnae ye ken that there are no Waitroses in this nick o' t' glen? Have to make do with what's on the shelves.

[scottycelt]

Ah, you're English ...

[Nick Armstrong]

Ah, you're English ...

[MrGongGong]

So apart from the Inquisition, the child abuse, the hitler youth, the persecutions etc
what has the Catholic Church ever done............. etc

hardly a "rock of reason and stability" for its victims .........

[ahinton]

Ah, you're English ...

Well, I'm not, but...

[Pianorak]

. . . a good deal of a bottle of Morrison's latest special offer red. . .

More power to your elbow, umslopogaas!

[Anna]

Someone's been to Hereford Cathedral lately, it would seem; how do you like it now that all the refurbishment (for the time being, at least) has been completed?

I'm afraid the last time I went to Hereford was in April, and then just to catch a train North, I haven't been to the Cathedral for years. I see on their webpage that Sir Roy Strong has donated a new set of black vestments to the Cathedral to be worn at certain services. The new vestments were made by Croft Design from Much Wenlock and will be worn for the first time on All Souls Day, on 2 November (today!!) and then on the 13th for remembrance. They do look rather dramatic.

[PhilipT]

So apart from the Inquisition, the child abuse, the hitler youth, the persecutions etc
what has the Catholic Church ever done............. etc

Sponsored scientific research? See the opening words of Heilbron's book. Also, I don't think you can actually claim that the Church 'did' the Hitler Youth. If you'd been in Ratzinger's position, what would you have done?