Canons of St Paul's

[John Skelton]

As for the quotes by others, the thinking behind what He was teaching is the important idea - don't take it too literally!

That's a remarkably casual approach to the NT texts, Simon. And suggests that you are confident you can reconstruct Christ's thought behind the text. Which in itself is ... remarkable. Admittedly they were written decades after his death - but I thought Christians accepted them as scripture (Higher Biblical Criticism and later approaches based on Higher Biblical Criticism attempt to deconstruct that acceptance, of course).

John the Baptist (as reported by Matthew) wasn't an adjunct by "the Church":

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

[MrGongGong]

I'm no Biblical Scholar
but
the idea that one should "don't take it too literally!" is rather pathetic
is such wooly minded and dare I say it "liberal" thinking that I'm sure that Simons computer has been hacked !

Which bit shouldn't we "take literally" ???? the bit about "loving your enemies"? or all the other things that Jesus was supposed to have said and done ?
I should have realised that it was all metaphorical , (even given several translations !) when the Bible says "Thou shalt not kill" it doesn't really mean that at all.
So when Simon says that he dislikes Stockhausen its purely metaphorical as he really spends his summers on a pilgrimage to Kurten !


the day when I might consider rejoining the church gets further and further away !

[Magnificat]

So that's Fraser and Knowles. Where does that leave matters? Who's winning?

St Paul's are in a precarious position in the battle as they are becoming rather short on ecclesiastical light artillery.

Someone said on Newsnight tonight that if the protesters had been camped in front of the Vatican they would have been immediately water - cannoned. Perhaps St Paul's should do bring out theirs. We can't have the RCs being one up on the Protestants.

VCC

VCC

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

this is an interesting lecture about stupidity,, violence and power.... it seems close to the nature of the confrontation at ST Pauls in some respects, it is intrinsically interesting in any case

[ardcarp]

All this talk of Canons, cannons, (verb, past tense cannoned or cannonned, canonnised perhaps?) makes me long for a little light relief. How about a Limerick competition, the given first line being:

There once was a Dean of St Paul's

[MrGongGong]

Or even

As I was walking past StPauls ...........

is this a commonly known one ?
was when I was a kid (what say you fellow posh-scouse Hackney ?)

[Chris Newman]

Or even

As I was walking past StPauls ...........

A lady grabbed me.............

I cried for help but no help came

.........................................

[ardcarp]

There once was a Dean of St Paul's
Who, rejecting his place in the stalls,
Stormed through the West door
And encamped with the poor
Roaring "Capitalism is......

Oh well.

[Serial_Apologist]

There once was a Dean of St Paul's
Who, rejecting his place in the stalls,
Stormed through the West door
And encamped with the poor
Roaring "Capitalism is......

Oh well.

[Simon]

That's a remarkably casual approach to the NT texts, Simon. And suggests that you are confident you can reconstruct Christ's thought behind the text. Which in itself is ... remarkable.

I think that I'd claim, John, to have grasped the main message that Christ was delivering, rather than the ability to "reconstruct thought"! I'm fairly clear in my own mind that the "God is love" idea was central. I'm not sure anyone can completely assess the specific intention of some of His less direct teachings, as they were of their time. That said, the massive moral effect that the major thrusts of what He taught have had across the world and into the lives of billions over the past 2000 years would perhaps lead one to suppose in them a certain logicality that resonates with some of the higher elements of human life and behaviour. Which is why Christians such as me are so bitterly disappointed with some of the actions that have been carried out in the name of Christ over the centuries: travesties, indeed.

The freewill aspect is of course central: we all have a choice. But our conscious choice to do good as opposed to evil would be, in my reading of it, for Christ, intended to be the result of a desire to follow His teachings and of a love of God (the ultimate creating life force) and therefore of our fellow humans, rather than out of fear of the consequences. The God of Jesus is, I think, a God of Love who asks us to do His will, rather than a God of Violence who wants to terrorize or frighten us into abject obedience - despite what the various "christian" sects have had to say over the years. I can relate to a God like that (the former!) - it seems to make logical sense of the freedoms we have and the moral choices we have to make - indeed, of the existence of "conscience" and morality within us in the first place.

Keep it simple, as He tended to do, would be my suggestion, rather than "casual". I've never known any complex disussion of religious dogma lead anywhere other than to confusions and discord.

Of course, I could be in error on some of these points, though I'm happy with them for myself as far as I can be at the moment. But I've never been a religious dogmatic and I'm always ready to read sensible and rational views on the subject and I thank you for yours so far.

[Magnificat]

There once was a Dean of St Paul's
Who, rejecting his place in the stalls,
Stormed through the West door
And encamped with the poor
Roaring "Capitalism is......

Oh well.

ardcarp

There once was a Dean of St Paul's
Who said " Why should violence appal?"
We need to get shot
Of that foul smelling lot
Camped outside these hallowed portals.

There once was a Dean of St Paul's
Who held 'Elf 'n Safety in thrall
When criticised widely
He said rather shyly
"My position is untenable"

Oh well, at least I've had a go

VCC

[MrGongGong]

I think that I'd claim, John, to have grasped the main message that Christ was delivering, rather than the ability to "reconstruct thought"! I'm fairly clear in my own mind that the "God is love" idea was central. I'm not sure anyone can completely assess the specific intention of some of His less direct teachings as they were of their time. That said, the massive moral effect that the major thrusta of what He taught have had across the world and into the lives of billions over the past 2000 years would perhaps lead one to suppose in them a certain logicality that resonates with some of the higher elements of human life and behaviour. Which is why Christians such as me are so bitterly disappointed with some of the actions that have been carried out in the name of Christ over the centuries: travesties, indeed.

The freewill aspect is of course central: we all have a choice. But our conscious choice to to good as oppose to evil would be, in my reading of it, for Christ, intended to be the result of a desire to follow His teachings and of a love of God (the ultimate creating life force) and therefore of our fellow humans, rather than out of fear of the consequences. The God of Jesus is, I think, a God of Love who asks us to do His will, rather than a God of Violence who wants to terrorize or frighten us into abject obedience - despite what the various "christian" sects have had to say over the years. I can relate to a God like that (the former!) - it seems to make logical sense of the freedoms we have and the moral choices we have to make - indeed, of the existence of "conscience" and morality within us in the first place.

Keep it simple, as He tended to do, would be my suggestion, ratjher than "casual". I've never known any complex disussion of religious dogma lead anywhere other than to confusions and discord.

Of course, I could be in error on some of these points, though I'm happy with them for myself as far as I can be at the moment. But I've never been a religious dogmatic and I'm always ready to read sensible and rational views on the subject and I thank you for yours so far.

I don't (really !) mean to be offensive
BUT
from what you have written here in the past Simon, you are as much a Christian as I am the president of the Elgar appreciation society ! even though you might say you are and I do think the first Symphony is rather good
to be one (and I'm not one either) would mean that you would follow the teachings of Christ in actions not simply like the traditions of the church and listening to CE
you have described Brittens pacifism and the opposition to nuclear weapons as naive ........ for example, Christianity is a pacifist religion, you can't opt out of the uncomfortable bits (well you can if you are a catholic and get a bit of forgiveness for abusing children it would seem )
keep it simple .......... indeed
you have utter contempt bordering on gross offence for those who disagree with your views , I can't see much evidence of the supposed humility that religion is supposed to instil
the pathetic fudge of "only god is perfect and we poor sinners keep trying" etc is a feeble excuse for not bothering to make any real change


I have met many religious people of all persuasions, some, have faith (which I don't ) that means they use this to act for good in the world...... I don't see much evidence

Religion is NOT "sensible and rational" its supposed to challenge the accepted orthodoxy.......

But of course you wont read any of this , because you have decided to ignore people you disagree with or think are a bit stupid. I know the "what would Jesus do" banner could be seen as a cheap shot but it has a point if one is supposed to follow the example !!!

[ardcarp]

VCC. A valiant effort! I don't think either of us are lined up for a bust in Poets' Corner. Oh, that's the other place....

[Magnificat]

ardcarp

The muse has re-visted me

What about:

There once was a Dean of St Paul's
Who uttered the most awful b--ls
About safety 'n 'elf
And risked all the wealth
Of his church, not those Mammonic Halls.

Rather Betjemanesque I thought. I think I might end up in WA after all.

[ahinton]

the massive moral effect that the major thrusts of what He taught have had across the world and into the lives of billions over the past 2000 years would perhaps lead one to suppose in them a certain logicality that resonates with some of the higher elements of human life and behaviour. Which is why Christians such as me are so bitterly disappointed with some of the actions that have been carried out in the name of Christ over the centuries: travesties, indeed.

OK, but the same or something similar could surely be said about Islam, or about capitalism, or about Marxism, or... What goes on under all kinds of names may well turn out to be profoundly unrepresentative of original intentions, even allowing for the vast social, cultural, economic and other changes that have occurred over the centuries