Canons of St Paul's

[teamsaint]

This sums up quite neatly one of the main reasons that I stopped having anything to do with the church when I was a teenager in the 1970's even though the music was/is wonderful !
I have massive respect for those in the Christian churches who are prepared to actually make their faith have some effect in the world, and none whatsoever who hedge around issues of morality in this way.
There is always a (real or imaginary or red herring ) issue of "survival" against the baddies , its extremely naive to be taken in by this time and time again. The really dangerous bit is maybe when the threats that cause otherwise sensible people to suspend their moral compass turn out to be real , given that our politicians seem to be unable to act in a truthful way about anything.
I'm always heartened by those in the Church prepared to stand up for what they profess to believe (even though it is no longer what I believe myself )

Quite. if anybody needs to be shown how nebulous threats can and are used by those at the top to control the rest, just read "1984." It is scarily predictive of the world today.

Threats , always threats.

Instead of threats, its better to judge how many people each day suffer from poverty , hunger, landmines, other weapons including armour piercing radioactive missiles, junk food, control of the medical world by drug companies etc.
Not threats. Real problems, everyday, for millions of people.

[teamsaint]

QUOTE:

Really? And these passages from the Koran say what exactly?

Quran (40:71-72) - When the fetters and the chains shall be on their necks; they shall be dragged Into boiling water, then in the fire shall they be burned

Quran (22:19-21) - But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads; Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron

Quran (4:56) - Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise

Quran (56:92-94) - But if he is of the rejecters, the erring, then the welcome will be boiling water and roasting at hell-fire



well I really must remember to quote those bits back at my friendly local Muslims next time we are passing the time of day.
Should help no end.
Seriously, you can find bits of stuff like that everywhere.They are quotes from another era used by the enemies of peace to divide us.

You know, most folks, religious or not, just want to do an honest days work (not the bankers obviously) feed clothe house themselves and their family, and have enough left over for the new Simon Rattle disc or to go to the footy.We don't have the tiime or energy dor being divided by the rich and greedy.

Unless, of course, you know differently, as Esther used to say.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

oh dear did Durkheim work in complete futility ...

[Chris Newman]

Forgive me Chris, but did you actually study any factual history of that period? Do you know anything demonstrably true about the sequence of events? Do you know anything about the situation in the USSR and the prerssures on the leadership there? Do you know what options Kennedy had?

Forgive me too, Simon. Yes, unlike you, I was around in the sixties and very much involved in the Cold War at the time of the Cuba Crisis, although (and this is the first time that I can use your usual excuse) having signed the Official Secret Acts I am not supposed to go into details. Suffice to say that it is the duty of Christians, who having faith in the teachings of their founder, to uphold their belief in the wrongness of war and the threat of war. You may see that as misguided or impractical; they see it as a duty. At the time I was considering a full-time military career. The blackmailing of the world's population made such a course morally impossible in my eyes.

[MrGongGong]

Forgive me too, Simon. Yes, unlike you, I was around in the sixties and very much involved in the Cold War at the time of the Cuba Crisis, although (and this is the first time that I can use your usual excuse) having signed the Official Secret Acts I am not supposed to go into details. Suffice to say that it is the duty of Christians, who having faith in the teachings of their founder, to uphold their belief in the wrongness of war and the threat of war. You may see that as misguided or impractical; they see it as a duty. At the time I was considering a full-time military career. The blackmailing of the world's population made such a course morally impossible in my eyes.

Hats off to you Chris

[handsomefortune]

seconded.

[teamsaint]

TeamSaint ....Seriously, you can find bits of stuff like that everywhere.They are quotes from another era used by the enemies of peace to divide us.

True...but my post was in response to the sweeping statement made by BBM.

fair comment.

[greenilex]

I'm not sure, but I guess hell-fire prophesy is standard in Islam as it is in Judaism and indeed Christianity... but it is not a recommendation for action by listeners, merely a threat aimed at the ungodly.

If you believe in an after-life of rewards and punishments then that's to be expected.

Many religious people think we have to make our own peace here and now.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

hear hear greenilex .... if you want peace be peaceful .....

i find the St Pauls confrontation emblematic of the whole mess, the 'people' v 'the establishment' or 'town' v 'gown' ...the House of Commons often strikes me as a prototypical public school, co-ed nowadays natch, but not Hogwarts more the pre war novels for boys that were such a feature of the local library in my early days ...

'tis to be hoped the situation does not descend to violence, and the public debate offered by the Dean & Bishop could be very interesting ...

[MrGongGong]

One option ?

http://img.chan4chan.com/img/2010-09-06/hNGFe.jpg

[vinteuil]

I'm not sure, but I guess hell-fire prophesy is standard in Islam as it is in Judaism and indeed Christianity... but it is not a recommendation for action by listeners, merely a threat aimed at the ungodly.

.

... let us not forget the more gruesome parts of that lovely psalm [137?] 'By the waters of Babylon... '

- which goes on to wish: -

"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."

hmmm.

[handsomefortune]

even happier when social services turn up, and give the kids a new home.

[Simon]

I'm not sure, but I guess hell-fire prophesy is standard in Islam as it is in Judaism and indeed Christianity...

It's certainly not standard in Christianity; you may be correct about the other two.

[MrGongGong]

It's certainly not standard in Christianity; you may be correct about the other two.

Oh , that's a surprise
I was always under the impression that Christianity included the Old Testament ?
obviously not so i'm just off to snack on a Buzzard !

[Serial_Apologist]

Oh , that's a surprise
I was always under the impression that Christianity included the Old Testament ?
obviously not so i'm just off to snack on a Buzzard !

Depends which mutation of Christianity you go for. They're all true, of course. Why do I say that? Because they've all told me so. On this truth doth faith thereby hang.