UEA Music Department to close

[Simon]

All job losses are a shame. But there are jobs that are worthwhile and jobs that aren't. That's life. I wouldn't lose sleep, for instance, over the dismissal of a few hundred Eurocrats who have been milking the system in Brussels for years and achieving nothing for the peoples of Europe. I know many of them through my work and they'd agree that they are useless too. They could retrain as teachers, perhaps, or nurses, and do something useful. Similarly with those engaged in promoting worthless "art".

[MrGongGong]

I guess that means all music then ?
what utter nonsense

[ardcarp]

When Exeter music dept closed a few years ago, I made a fuss to the VC about it, and his reply to me was that 'music just isn't cost-effective'. What has 'cost-effective' got to do with anything a university does? What he really meant was that he likes depatments with a student to staff ratio of 500:1

[teamsaint]

All job losses are a shame. But there are jobs that are worthwhile and jobs that aren't. That's life. I wouldn't lose sleep, for instance, over the dismissal of a few hundred Eurocrats who have been milking the system in Brussels for years and achieving nothing for the peoples of Europe. I know many of them through my work and they'd agree that they are useless too. They could retrain as teachers, perhaps, or nurses, and do something useful. Similarly with those engaged in promoting worthless "art".

worthless? define worthless.
stuff you don't like?
I know lots of people who think shakespeare and Beethoven are pretty pointless.

You know what, I bet loads of people who were educated at UEA music dept have done really well as a result.

Lots of people think that R3 is a waste of taxpayers money too.
be careful what you wish for..or approve of.

[Chris Newman]

Worthless? I hope you are not a spokesman for this government? Most members of this board would let you know what they think is worthless. I am all in favour of freedom of speech but I think that everything I read from Simon is worthless. It is of no value to anything that I hold dear in life. It is insulting to art and common sense. By the way, Simon, get to know the membership better (that means read what they say more often and get to know them rather than shoot from the hip) rather than sending snide messages about spelling to members from abroad.

[teamsaint]

his sort of pointless trolling would get infraction points on plenty of football forums.

well, I like to think so, anyway !!

Still, kinda adds to the forum fun in a headbanging sort of way.

[Simon]

worthless? define worthless.
stuff you don't like?
I know lots of people who think shakespeare and Beethoven are pretty pointless.

You know what, I bet loads of people who were educated at UEA music dept have done really well as a result.

Lots of people think that R3 is a waste of taxpayers money too.
be careful what you wish for..or approve of.

Thanks, teamsaint. I know we disagree on many things, but that's a good post and you make some good points. I'll comment on the first, if I may.

I think I'd define worthless art as that which takes little or no talent to produce, is not crafted well and is either fraudulent - a con - or easily open to that accusation, whether in reality true or not. It is, also, often championed by a certain small minority set of people, who like to proclaim themselves as a sort of inner circle of cognoscenti, able to "understand" something that the majority ("of the ignorant" is understood here) cannot.

[MrGongGong]

maybe having a LOOK at what the particular specialisms of the department are BEFORE deciding that they are all useless would be a good idea ?
You know , EDUCATING yourself a bit ????

here's a useful link

http://www.uea.ac.uk/mus/People

[teamsaint]

Thanks, teamsaint. I know we disagree on many things, but that's a good post and you make some good points. I'll comment on the first, if I may.

I think I'd define worthless art as that which takes little or no talent to produce, is not crafted well and is either fraudulent - a con - or easily open to that accusation, whether in reality true or not. It is, also, often championed by a certain small minority set of people, who like to proclaim themselves as a sort of inner cirle of cognoscenti, able to "understand" something that the majority ("of the ignorant" is understood here) cannot.

well you may have put together a decent working definition of "worthless". but its still horribly subjective, and as we know, sometimes those little groups turn out to be right.

and i'm not sure how any of that applies to UEA music dept, (though it may, for all I know).

[MrGongGong]

well you may have put together a decent working definition of "worthless". but its still horribly subjective, and as we know, sometimes those little groups turn out to be right.
.

NO they aren't
Bax is Rubbish
its obvious, it's championed by a small set of people and doesn't appeal to the "majority"

what utter nonsense this man spouts !
using this definition Einaudi is a great composer and Mahler isn't neither is Corelli
and after reading the CE thread I would add Victoria to the list ............ totally worthless by this definition
The X factor is obviously worth much more than anything ever played at the Proms etc etc etc etc

[SaveUEAMusic]

Hi Guys,

Thankyou all for your supportive comments. We here at UEA don't intend on accepting these diktats from on high and are building a campaign against the proposed closure. Here's how you can help:

- Join over 2400 people in signing the petition which can be found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...emExb0NpRUE6MQ
- Like our Facebook page to receive regular updates on our progress: www.facebook.com/SaveUEAMusic
- Follow us on Twitter to receive regular updates on our progress: @SaveUEAMusic
- Read the report issued by the University recommending the closure of the school here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/70677107/M...w-Panel-Report
- Email us at saveueamusic@gmail.com with any supportive statements/quotes that we can use for the campaign or just to find out how you can help us more!

Again thank you all for your support,

Save UEA Music.

[Simon]

Again thank you all for your support...

No support from me as yet, I'm afraid, subject to one consideration.

Your honesty in providing all the documentation links does you credit, but sadly, for me fails to make your case. I can only admire your perseverance in one way, but sometimes it's best to accept reality and move on: there are, clearly, opportunities of which you could make the most, largely relating to the outreach reputation that you have gained.

Briefly, my reasons for doubt are as follows:

The school has failed to make a quality REF submission, despite being given extra time;
- they have missed teaching targets;
- they have allowed low entry requirements leading to "insurance offer" perceptions among prospective students;
- they have been unable to attract AAB students;
- they have offered only limited modules and limited course facilities;
- their leadership has been ineffective;
- the school has been totally reliant on subvention for years;
- in 2002, the school was identified as being "at the margin of viability: it has not improved since.

One has to accept that there is no longer the money - there never was, really, though for some time the accounting was so inept that many places got away with it! - for inefficient departments to play at education and achieve little. That's realty.

That said - and here's the consideration mentioned at the beginning - if you could point me - and, perhaps the general public - to some recordings (youtube?) of some really great and artistically valid compositions by students over the past few years, we would I'm sure consider joining the fight to keep you going! I certainly would. I look forward to hearing from you.

Simon.

[MrGongGong]

NOT having support from this man would be of great benefit methinks
and I would suggest refraining from giving the many examples of work by alumni as he is likely (I was about to post a rather fine solo by Julian Siegal !) to dismiss them all as "not music" .........

[BBMmk2]

I have duly signed the petition on thread over ast our friends at R3OK.

[ahinton]

No support from me as yet, I'm afraid, subject to one consideration.

Your honesty in providing all the documentation links does you credit, but sadly, for me fails to make your case. I can only admire your perseverance in one way, but sometimes it's best to accept reality and move on: there are, clearly, opportunities of which you could make the most, largely relating to the outreach reputation that you have gained.

Briefly, my reasons for doubt are as follows:

The school has failed to make a quality REF submission, despite being given extra time;
- they have missed teaching targets;
- they have allowed low entry requirements leading to "insurance offer" perceptions among prospective students;
- they have been unable to attract AAB students;
- they have offered only limited modules and limited course facilities;
- their leadership has been ineffective;
- the school has been totally reliant on subvention for years;
- in 2002, the school was identified as being "at the margin of viability: it has not improved since.

One has to accept that there is no longer the money - there never was, really, though for some time the accounting was so inept that many places got away with it! - for inefficient departments to play at education and achieve little. That's realty.

That said - and here's the consideration mentioned at the beginning - if you could point me - and, perhaps the general public - to some recordings (youtube?) of some really great and artistically valid compositions by students over the past few years, we would I'm sure consider joining the fight to keep you going! I certainly would. I look forward to hearing from you.

By "realty" I presume you to mean "reality", even though I have ample reason to doubt that it's even that; "realty" is property (in Amercian English) sold and let by "realtors" (the US equivalent of estate agents in UK).

That, however, is not the point. Even if any of the doubts that you list above are true and accordingly justifiable (and you provide no evidence in support of any of them), are they sufficient in and of themselves to warrant the demise of, rather than certain efficiency improvements in, the said department? Do please bear in mind that this case is by no means an isolated or excpetional one in the current parlous world of cuts, actual and proposed, in music funding, be it in the field of education or of librarianship or of performance; try, for example, applying Baumol's law in practice to the 11% cuts to Arts Council funding of all major British orchestras by asking yourself how and whether any of them would try to implement - let alone be expected to get away with implementing - an equivalent percentage cut in their public concert programmes...