Age related hearing loss

[Guest]

It was a couple of years ago that I got my hearing tested and was issued with a hearing aid for my left ear, the slightly less good one. I can hear on my trusty Red Label test CD the 6.3 kHz frequency and those below. Being as daft as my old Dad was, I haven't used it much in the interim but found it helped a bit in theatre, at the cinema and for TV (especially American). Having at long last done something about the intrusive hum on my Thorens TD 165 deck and preamp and with a subsequent renewed interest in my LP collection, I retried my hearing aid. What seems to be happening is that although the high frequency boost is predominantly in the left ear the sound stage as a whole benefits and on the LP just played before writing this (Councelation, undemanding bliss from Harold Land, Jack Sheldon, Carl Perkins, Curtis Counce and Frank Dunlop) the drummer, with lots of the high frequency information, is accurately placed on the right of the sound stage!! I think I know why this is and if you'll allow me to revert to my previous incarnation as a Physics teacher, I'll explain.

The head is approximately 0.17 m in diameter, sound travels at 340 m/s, the wavelength that is most diffracted by the head is 340/0.17= 2000 Hz which is a frequency that those of us with only moderate hearing loss hear clearly enough in both ears for the stereo spatial information to be detected. The octaves either side of this frequency lie from the C two octaves above middle C to the C two octaves above that, roughly! In other words these frequencies are mostly overtones, higher harmonics, of actual notes rather than the notes themselves. Above 2000 Hz ( 2kHz) the ear detects intensity differences rather than the phase differences which give the stereo information and it seems that since in a normal hearing situation each ear receives roughly the same intensity ( the shadowing effect of the head toward one speaker than the other being relatively small) the brain is programmed to attach high frequency information to the 2 kHz data to which it appears to belong.

Any other explanations gratefully accepted, the point being that just one aid seems to do the duty for two BUT, yes, there is a BUT. If you already have a hearing aid then I should say that the one I was issued with is an "open ear" type with no ear-mould. There is just a small plastic hemisphere with substantial holes in it that let a large proportion of the incident sound directly to the ear canal. This is topped up by a small tube from the aid itself that boosts just those frequencies that need it. When issued the default setting was way too high and I had to get it reset to a minimum boost of 4 db, reduced from 16 db. This works fine. Also, the modern hearing aid is a sophisticated device designed to help people in noise rich situations ( the cocktail party scenario). To that end they have a forward facing microphone and, in addition, a second rear microphone. Using the technology applied to helicopter microphones and other noise reducing techniques, the sound from the rear microphone is subtracted from the forward facing one to give a clearer sound to the user in noise rich situations. This is clearly pointless listening to music at home, the aid is virtually self-cancelling. All you have to do is cover the rear hole with a little piece of sticky paper, hey presto!!

In conclusion, any of you hesitant about accepting incipient deafness, don't be shy , get tested, insist on an "open-ear" aid and re-enjoy your vast collection of recorded music.

[Ferretfancy]

clive heath

I find this most interesting,

Earlier this year I visited Boots opticians for a lens replacement, and discovered that they had a weekly visit from an audiologist who offered free hearing checks. I assumed that I had the normal age related loss, but decided to have a test, mainly out of curiosity.
I should say that good sound is important to me, as it used to be my livelihood.

Sure enough, there was a slight falling off, and the audiologist recommended that I should try some very expensive aids. I wore them for a week, and found the effect very distracting. Conversation quality was not significantly improved, bur ambient noises, voices in the street, footsteps etc. were over amplified. I therefore decided to return the aids, which were available subject to a sixty day return clause.

This is were trouble began , as after removing the aids I found that I had developed hyperacusis. This is a tinnitus related condition in which certain frequencies are exaggerated and loud transients can be very difficult to tolerate. Announcements on the tube have a horrible steely emphasis, and speech consonants have a horrible sibilance.
For some months now, listening to my high end audio has been a distressing experience, all its subtlety has disappeared.

The problem is beginning to reduce, and I am hopeful that it won't be permanent, but I feel that there is a warning in this.Naturally, it wopuld be very difficult to prove that the hearing aids were to blame, as this is something that is very difficult to assess objectively. I would say though, that if you are not having real difficulty with encroaching deafness, it would be best to travel with caution !

[Ventilhorn]

clive heath

I find this most interesting,

Earlier this year I visited Boots opticians for a lens replacement, and discovered that they had a weekly visit from an audiologist who offered free hearing checks. I assumed that I had the normal age related loss, but decided to have a test, mainly out of curiosity.
I should say that good sound is important to me, as it used to be my livelihood.

Sure enough, there was a slight falling off, and the audiologist recommended that I should try some very expensive aids. I wore them for a week, and found the effect very distracting. Conversation quality was not significantly improved, bur ambient noises, voices in the street, footsteps etc. were over amplified. I therefore decided to return the aids, which were available subject to a sixty day return clause.

This is were trouble began , as after removing the aids I found that I had developed hyperacusis. This is a tinnitus related condition in which certain frequencies are exaggerated and loud transients can be very difficult to tolerate. Announcements on the tube have a horrible steely emphasis, and speech consonants have a horrible sibilance.
For some months now, listening to my high end audio has been a distressing experience, all its subtlety has disappeared.

The problem is beginning to reduce, and I am hopeful that it won't be permanent, but I feel that there is a warning in this.Naturally, it wopuld be very difficult to prove that the hearing aids were to blame, as this is something that is very difficult to assess objectively. I would say though, that if you are not having real difficulty with encroaching deafness, it would be best to travel with caution !

Take Warning of Ferret's experience!

A hearing aid basically comprises a microphone, amplifier and loudspeaker, miniaturised to fit into the ear and like all microphones it is over-sensitive to percussive noises.

Try placing a microphone on the dinner table to record your guests' conversations. All that you will hear on replay is the clatter of knives and forks on plates and the slurping of liquid being poure into glasses. (I know this, because I once tried it!)

My hearing is impaired due to years spent sitting in front of the percussion section in the orchestra. No, not the big gong and the bass drum as one might expect, but rolls and batters on that confounded suspended cymbal, whose upper frequencies can sometimes be so loud as to cause acute physical pain in the ear. I now find that I have to listen to radio or TV at a much higher level than my wife, so I have resorted to wearing cordless headphones to listen at the level I need.

Of course, some people have to have hearing aids to hear at all, but I have never met anyone who does not complain about the squeaking of feedback and the rattling of extraeneous noises.

VH

[MrGongGong]

Try placing a microphone on the dinner table to record your guests' conversations. All that you will hear on replay is the clatter of knives and forks on plates and the slurping of liquid being poure into glasses. (I know this, because I once tried it!)

VH

actually this isn't true at all as it all depends on what sort of microphone you use !
but we do need to have much more awareness of hearing damage which most folk seem to think is only confined to amplified music and industrial noise

[salymap]

I have seen Ferret's comments before and this has made me hesitate to try Boots for some sort of hearing aid. I think my trouble is mostly tinnitus which gets worse as the day progresses. I also have trouble with men's voices in the family, although their wives seem quite clear still. One cousin does a lot of public speaking but in ordinary conversation he just mutters!

As a result of our local hospital closing many departments, I would have to travel some way to another hospital to get a proper test, which I can't manage because of other health problems.

[greenilex]

Saly, difficulties with higher frequencies are usual in presbyacusis (age-related loss).

It is normal to need a fair amount of time to adjust to hearing aids.

You are the only person who can judge if your loss is giving you real problems - which may include irritability, isolation and other psychological effects.

If so, make sure you consult the best audiologist available - probably in London. Explain your doubts fully.

Then we'll see - and with luck, you'll hear.

[clive heath]

It sounds as though the amplification was set too high in Ferret's case as it originally was in mine. As regards cost I was referred through my Group Practice and as I am over a certain age there is no charge, even for the batteries.

[Stillhomewardbound]

I'm also in the 'occupational hazard' category, I guess, after too many years editing on headphones at my desk and endless hours in studio sessions.

I would not say I'm at a stage of hearing loss, but if I can borrow an occular term, my hearing has lost a lot of its acuity and I struggle in social situations. I'm always having to ask people to repeat things for me. I've pretty well heard what they've said, but I'm not getting the full input, so tospeak.

I also find I'm very intolerant of noise these days, but is that in part because where I work (Shoreditch/Old Street), and the world in general, is so horribly noisy.

My mother towards the end of her life became very deaf, but she could never get on with hearing aids, unlike my father whose earing never seemed to dim.

[salymap]

One odd thing I've noticed is that when the chimes of Big Ben are broadcast they sound very odd indeed.

Part of the sound must be missing to me, and if I didn't know, I would never recognise them.

[Ferretfancy]

salymap

One of the features of tinnitus and certainly of hyperacusis, is that some sounds are exaggerated, especially if they contain loud transients. When my problem was at its most acute, the noise of a spoon being dropped onto a plate was enough to make me jump, and percussive high notes on a piano were dreadfully uncomfortable, while soprano voices were nearly impossible. Until a short while ago I began to wonder whether I could still attempt to enjoy music, fortunately it's a little easier now.

Oddly, I have not lost my ability to judge a good recording from a bad, but it's necessary to listen and ignore the additional superimposed fuzz and clatter.

There is a treatment that involves using a type of hearing aid which feeds low level pink noise into the ears, and the level is gradually raised over a period of months. This is supposed to mask the hearing problem while allowing normal perception, until the tinnitus is reduced. I intend to find out more about this.

On a cheerful note, back in antiquity, I once hitched a trip with a BBC engineer on his way to service the sound system at Big Ben. I remember we jumped into a taxi, saying " House of Commons please! " and on arrival were escorted to the base of the clock tower. It's a lot of steps ! They used rather grotty old apple and biscuit microphones, perhaps they still do. The clock mechanism is wonderful, and yes, it really does have old pennies on the pendulum to adjust the accuracy. Listening to the chimes from the room immediately under the bells is a shattering experience ! Happy days !

[salymap]

That's interesting Ferret, both about the visit to the clock tower and the new treatment with 'pink noise'.

Let me know if you find out more about it, will you?

[Roslynmuse]

Ferret's reference to hearing Big Ben from the room below put me in mind of Dorothy L Sayers' The Nine Tailors -

I can't imagine anything more distressing than hearing loss or hearing distortion and I have deep sympathy with anyone on here who has such difficulties.

[Stillhomewardbound]

I've mentioned this before but when I was at Bush House studio desks had a dedicated fader for Big Ben. The mic in the tower was permanently live and you could listen to the channel on pre-fade.

What you'd hear was the intermittent cooing of pigeons mixed with the rumble of the city traffic, car horns, police sirens etc. below in Parliament Square, and best of all the small talk of maintenance workers ... 'core, look at the state of this!' ... 'Sid, that shift at the weekend ... is that toime and an arf?!'

The best of all was to hear the mechanics of the clock slowly gear up with the approach of a quarter ... with a clukka clukka clukka, twanga twanga twange, gurgaru ... [and] boing!

You literally could feel yourself at the heart of the Empire with that sound.

[John Wright]

I haven't had a hearing test for quite a few years - it was a regular thing at my last employment as we spent a good amount of time in noisy factory environments. Of course I've listened to music for decades but rarely loud stuff. I restore vintage records and edit podcasts every week so hopefully what I hear is what most people hear; not had any complaints!

I do though, have a tinnitus problem. I reckon it started about 8 years ago as a constant whistle which I only heard when trying to sleep, then one day walking though fields in Lincolnshire with Mrs W, miles from any traffic, I realised this was the quietest place I had EVER been in and I could hear the whistle.

The tinnitus has got worse last couple of years so that I can usually hear it when sitting in the lounge in the morning. My tinnitus, though, doesn't seem to be 'in my ears', it seems to reside in the middle of my head and it's now not a monotone whistle, I liken it now to a distant taxi-ing aircraft.

Just worry a bit, what the future holds for my hearing, or my head!

[Ferretfancy]

salymap,

I've just made an appointment at my local ENT clinic, but it's not until the end of November. Who knows, I might have recovered by then, but I'll keep you posted!

Roslynmuse,

Yes it was very Nine Tailors, and I love that book. Perhaps I'll rename myself Batty Thomas.

Stillhomewardbound's description of the clock revving up is spot on, and I still remember how loud the traffic on Bridge Street sounded from up there.