BBC ORCHESTRAS: Who will be the first to go?

[Tony Halstead]

"Who will be the first to go?"

Forgetting 'money' for the moment, basing the idea of a BBC orchestra's redundancy solely on its musical qualities ( or lack of them), surely it's glaringly obvious?
Which one of them has, consistently, irrespective of whoever is conducting:

1) Strident, Overloud BRASS;
2) Weak, undernourished STRINGS;
3) Puny, wobbly, characterless WOODWIND
???

[Ventilhorn]

The Concert Orchestra already makes a good lot of its income commercially, I believe (don't know what proportion) and is obviously skilled in certain things like working with big name pop stars, jazz singers and so on. You would like to think it could compete pretty well if it had to do more away from the BBC. Maybe if it was guaranteed x number of Friday Nights that would provide the basis of a BBC arrangement.

Watch News Night on BBC2 TV. Or David Attenborough's Nature programmes from BBC Bristol - or many other programmes which are enhanced by the splendid background music.

And who is playing the music? The BBC Concert Orchestra!

They are arguably the most versatile orchestra in the country, able to play anything from symphonic music to pop shows, with equal expertise and panache.

They should be the last orchestra to go. (and they don't have double principal players in all departments, not forgetting more than one Leader changing, it appears, almost daily, like the BBC Symphony Orchestra**).

**Cerrtainly the most expensive orchestra by far and in my opinion, no better than the other BBC house orchestras.

But we must fight to keep them all, notwithstanding the fact that certain wasteful expenditure could and should be eliminated.

Ventilhorn

[Ventilhorn]

"Who will be the first to go?"

Forgetting 'money' for the moment, basing the idea of a BBC orchestra's redundancy solely on its musical qualities ( or lack of them), surely it's glaringly obvious?
Which one of them has, consistently, irrespective of whoever is conducting:

1) Strident, Overloud BRASS;
2) Weak, undernourished STRINGS;
3) Puny, wobbly, characterless WOODWIND
???

You tell us, WH

[BetweenTheStaves]

You tell us, WH

Berlin Philharmonic ?

[doversoul1]

Wouldn’t BBC see the BBC Concert Orchestra as the very embodiment of the new face of Radio3 whereas the other orchestras….

[salymap]

All no doubt true but really the end of an era if the BBCSO goes. {I gather that is who the real musicians are talking about]?

As someone who remembers it from the 1930s, through most of the Boult, all of the Sargent, and later years,
is it really the weakest link? It is certainly variable, to put it kindly.

[french frank]

So it looks like R3 evening disc jockeys will be spinning the turntables a la Classic FM? Or does it?

I thought the idea was that there would be fewer orchestral concerts, but more (of the less expensive) chamber recitals.

[Ventilhorn]

I believe that we should be concerned not with dismantling orchestras but with cutting out wastage.

For instance:

1) As I mentioned in a previous post: Co-Principals who only play half of the concerts and go off to swell their already more than generous pensionable salaries with outside work (keeping other worthy musicians unemployed)

2) The commisioning of "First Performances" (almost certainly will turn out to be the last) which require augmentation of numerous percussionists and other extras and are usually little more than ten minutes in duration.

3) The import of overseas orchestras, many of which are no better quality than the BBC House orchestras.

4) Guest conductors who demand massive fees, first class air travel and twice as much rehearsal time as our own resident conductors.

5) Guest presenters. There is a totally adequate selection of presenters under BBC contract. (qv) There is no need to import so-called experts to tell us what we just heard and how wonderful it was.

That's just a few examples of needless wastage. I hope the BBC will address those situations first, before handing out redundancy notices to loyal and hard-working Rank and File musicians.

Ventilhorn

[aeolium]

All no doubt true but really the end of an era if the BBCSO goes. {I gather that is who the real musicians are talking about]?

As someone who remembers it from the 1930s, through most of the Boult, all of the Sargent, and later years,
is it really the weakest link? It is certainly variable, to put it kindly.

I'm not sure it is so much a question of the quality, salymap, as the location. The other BBC orchestras, apart from the Concert orchestra which is a bit sui generis, are all associated with particular regions or countries and a key part of the music-making there. The BBCSO primarily gives concerts in London, as I understand it, and there is hardly a shortage of alternatives for people there. There would have to be some thought given to who would fill the gaps for the Proms concerts if it did go.

Having said that, I'd be sad to see it go as it is still a very good orchestra given the right conductor and it has over several decades been one of the foremost British orchestras for playing new music. I think its closure would leave a bigger hole in the musical life of the country than people realise.

I cannot believe there are not better savings to be made elsewhere, e.g. in managerial and presenter salaries and BBC television (especially the wretched BBC1).

[Ventilhorn]

I thought the idea was that there would be fewer orchestral concerts, but more (of the less expensive) chamber recitals.

Fewer orchestral concerts must inevitably mean fewer BBC Staff orchestras, FF.
The outside regional orchestras input (CBSO,BSO, Hallé, RLPO, RSNO and various chamber orchestras) to Radio 3 has already been reduced to a minimum over the past couple of years.

[french frank]

Fewer orchestral concerts must inevitably mean fewer BBC Staff orchestras, FF.

Depends how many concerts they need to cut - we have the Lucerners on next week, Freiburg and Bamberg a couple of weeks ago &c. They may aim to protect the BBC orchestras and those like the CBSO, Bournemouth with whom they've had long partnerships. Not that I'm particularly optimistic about the future.

[Bryn]

If any of the BBC orchestras is to go, it should be that which performs the fewest new commission and music of the latter half ot the 20th Century and start of the 21st. Those which largely rely on churning out the work of long dead composers should be first against the wall. The very last of the Beebs orchestras to go should be the Scottish Symphony Orchestra, whose enthusiastic commitment to adventurous programming marks them out as the Beeb's top orchestra.

Now spinning, (to be followed by last year's Proms performance by the same forces), Morton Feldman's Piano and Orchestra (John Tilbury, BBCSSO, Volkov), Glasgow, April 24th 2010.

[EnemyoftheStoat]

I believe that we should be concerned not with dismantling orchestras but with cutting out wastage.

For instance:

1) As I mentioned in a previous post: Co-Principals who only play half of the concerts and go off to swell their already more than generous pensionable salaries with outside work (keeping other worthy musicians unemployed)

2) The commisioning of "First Performances" (almost certainly will turn out to be the last) which require augmentation of numerous percussionists and other extras and are usually little more than ten minutes in duration.

3) The import of overseas orchestras, many of which are no better quality than the BBC House orchestras.

4) Guest conductors who demand massive fees, first class air travel and twice as much rehearsal time as our own resident conductors.

5) Guest presenters. There is a totally adequate selection of presenters under BBC contract. (qv) There is no need to import so-called experts to tell us what we just heard and how wonderful it was.

That's just a few examples of needless wastage. I hope the BBC will address those situations first, before handing out redundancy notices to loyal and hard-working Rank and File musicians.

Ventilhorn

Seconded, all the above. I'm sure there are more, but in addition:

Make the marketing people justify their existence and sell tickets properly for the non-Prom concerts. ("Oh, that's not important, we're a broadcasting organisation". Rubbish; it should have been addressed before now.)

Impose a moratorium, or at least a cap, on new commissions, or at least bloated ones as above - focus instead on repertoire that deserves a second performance, and on the worthwhile late 20th/early 21st century material already around. Vanity projects should be funded externally if they're worth it at all.

[salymap]

I'm not up to date with the position re. the BBC Maida Vale Studios. Over the years I have attended many concerts and rehearsals there and broadcasts from Maida Vale must cost a fraction of a RFH or Barbican concert. But of course the orchestra still has to be paid.
I know there is no income from tickets etc and there were rumours of MV closing. Does anyone know the latest on this?

[John Skelton]

If any of the BBC orchestras is to go, it should be that which performs the fewest new commission and music of the latter half ot the 20th Century and start of the 21st. Those which largely rely on churning out the work of long dead composers should be first against the wall. The very last of the Beebs orchestras to go should be the Scottish Symphony Orchestra, whose enthusiastic commitment to adventurous programming marks them out as the Beeb's top orchestra

That certainly seems a reasonable line to take with the BBCSO; with two orchestras 'resident' at the RFH, the LSO at The Barbican & the RPO London based. That's not to say I want to see the BBC close any of its orchestras or musicians lose their jobs.