Semantics

[marthe]

Of course, you may, marthe, as long as you don't take offence at assaults on your language!

Thank you ff. As they say over here,"no worries." Please don't take offence/offense at my barbarous spelling and punctuation.

[Ventilhorn]

The Royal Correspondent who isn't royal. Should be Royalty.

She went "I go to Argos" and I went "do you?" and she went "yes".

Aw, bless.

I was like "oh my God" because it was like amazing.

You're a star.

The last four are nearly always women. I blame "Friends".

A well known mysogenist, (NNNPD) was once heard to remark:

" ... the man who did the most for womankind is the man who invented knitting. It gives them something to think about while they are talking."

Personally, I don't agree. I love them all for their practical common sense, which is a much more valuable asset than the average man can claim.**

Different from not "than" or "to"
Similar to not "with" or "from"
Compare with not "to" --- "...Shall I compare thee to a summer rose? ..." naughty Shakspear!" (authentic spelling)

31 replies in under 20 hours. It would appear that this thread will solve many arguments and create even more.

Keep at it!


VH

** def: intellectual someone who has been educated beyond his intelligence

[Pabmusic]

A well known mysogenist, (NNNPD) was once heard to remark:


Different from not "than" or "to"
Similar to not "with" or "from"
Compare with not "to" --- "...Shall I compare thee to a summer rose? ..." naughty Shakspear!" (authentic spelling)

I agree - a good thread. If only we knew how to spell William's name. There are six surviving signatures: William Shakspere, William Shaksper, William Shakspeare, Willm Shakspere, Wm Shakspe, and Willm Shakp. The last three (at least) are almost certainly abbreviations. As to the various ways that writers have referred to him over the years, there's not room to list the spellings.

But I must take issue with "different from" instead of "than" or "to" (though the last is more a British usage). Fowler exposed this rule as a myth as long ago as 1906 (The King's English). No serious authority supports it, but many teachers used to - no doubt the same ones who didn't like split infinitives, or prepositions at the end of sentences. The Bard wasn't wrong - there was simply no spurious Georgian/Victorian school text book to insist he do it another way.

[amateur51]

I agree - a good thread. If only we knew how to spell William's name. There are six surviving signatures: William Shakspere, William Shaksper, William Shakspeare, Willm Shakspere, Wm Shakspe, and Willm Shakp. The last three (at least) are almost certainly abbreviations. As to the various ways that writers have referred to him over the years, there's not room to list the spellings.

Are you an Oxfordian, Pabmusic?

[Pabmusic]

Are you an Oxfordian, Pabmusic?

No, not at all. I'm quite prepared to accept he wrote the plays himself - though I wouldn't be at all surprised to find some degree of 'co-operative' writing as well. It's difficult to believe that what we have now are all first drafts.

[amateur51]

No, not at all. I'm quite prepared to accept he wrote the plays himself - though I wouldn't be at all surprised to find some degree of 'co-operative' writing as well. It's difficult to believe that what we have now are all first drafts.

Sorry, Pabmusic, I was teasing, as is my wont.

Can anyone recommend a good (ie up-to-date and relatively easy to digest) book/website about the Oxfordian debate please?

[Pabmusic]

Sorry, Pabmusic, I was teasing, as is my wont.

I don't know how many times I've had this experience - someone is teasing, but I take them seriously. All my life, I suppose, but it does mean that I ruin the joke. Which makes me feel guilty - gives me a complex, even. Ah well...tragedy...

[amateur51]

I don't know how many times I've had this experience - someone is teasing, but I take them seriously. All my life, I suppose, but it does mean that I ruin the joke. Which makes me feel guilty - gives me a complex, even. Ah well...tragedy...

Not at all, Pabmusic - the fault lies with my teasing tendencies plus the unsubtlety of this type of communication. I must find a 'raised eyebrow' emoticon

Would this do the trick, do you think?

[Pabmusic]

Not at all, Pabmusic - the fault lies with my teasing tendencies plus the unsubtlety of this type of communication. I must find a 'raised eyebrow' emoticon

Would this do the trick, do you think?

It does very well, thank you.

As to your (serious?) point about the (silly) Oxford debate, 'Contested Will: Who Wrote Shakespeare?' by James Shapiro is quite good (and up-to-date).

[amateur51]

One thing I've noticed is that some people are highly resistant to using new/imported expressions while others leap to employ them.

I'm of the first kind because I don't like copying or being influenced in that way. If you're the second kind, why do you like using the latest expressions?

I agree french frank, I've a tendency to resist too.

There was a fascinating exhibition a while back at The British Library about the origins and development of the English language and one point in particular sent a chill down my spine.

Because of the widespread use of English as the universal language of IT, trade, banking etc., there are far more people who speak English as a second language than there are those for whom it is their first language.

This means that, if usage is the key to acceptance, it is English as a second language that will become predominant.

[vinteuil]

The more I read of earlier English literature (mainly 17th, 18th, 19th century) - the more forgiving I have become of what are seen as infringements of the current 'rules'. Coleridge notoriously always used the apostrophe in the possessive it's - and Wordsworth was so uncertain about punctuation he preferred to ask the printer to do it for him.
As Pabmusic indicates in #33 above, Fowler tried to breathe some sanity into this back in 1906, but various mythic shibboleths persist, providing small pleasures for the sad 'I know I'm right' correcting brigade. And yet surely - stubborn and ill-founded pedanticisms are a greater offence than unthinking error. I relish heroic and obscure pedantry - but I hope we can avoid cavils at split infinitives and the like.

[Pabmusic]

various mythic shibboleths persist, providing small pleasures for the sad 'I know I'm right' correcting brigade. And yet surely - stubborn and ill-founded pedanticisms are a greater offence than unthinking error. I relish heroic and obscure pedantry - but I hope we can avoid cavils at split infinitives and the like.

The whole point (as I see it) is : how easily understood am I? If I cause people to hesitate, even briefly, in order to understand my meaning, aren't I at fault, rather than they? There are some genuine grammatical rules (perhaps not as many as in some languages) and they are mostly useful, but there are plenty of spurious ones as well.

[kernelbogey]

One oddity I've noticed on the Beeb and elsewhere is the use of concerning where I would expect to hear worrying [....]

I think this usage provides a useful distinction. 'I've been worried about you' puts the emphasis on the speaker's internal process. 'I've been concerned about you' puts the focus on the other person; in other words expressing care for them. A 'concerning' issue, correspondingly, might be one the speaker regards as worthy of the attention of others, as opposed to the more subjective 'worrying issue'.

[amateur51]

I think this usage provides a useful distinction. 'I've been worried about you' puts the emphasis on the speaker's internal process. 'I've been concerned about you' puts the focus on the other person; in other words expressing care for them. A 'concerning' issue, correspondingly, might be one the speaker regards as worthy of the attention of others, as opposed to the more subjective 'worrying issue'.

Crackin' work, kernel

[kernelbogey]

Oh, and there's the newish usage of the present tense to describe something in the past. One hears this on programmes like In Our Time': 'Henry now decides to lay waste the monasteries'.

And here's a strange one from today's Guardian website, from a weather forecaster: 'Tomorrow it's much cooler, and the highest temperatures will be around 19C and 20C.'