The Red Flag's flagging a bit... Lol.

[french frank]

At least under FPTP the person who has the genuine and most positive support of any candidate always wins!

But that may be as little 30%.

The Davis-Cameron poll illustrates the point very well. Davis came top in the first round, when just the MPs voted, with 62 to Cameron's 56. When Clarke was eliminated, Cameron's support shot up to 90, while Davis's actually dropped back to 57 - not much of an endorsement of that 'genuine and positive support' that would have carried him to a triumphant victory under FPTP, was it? The third round was the postal ballot and not comparable anyway.

[teamsaint]

And what do you do with all your Co-Op bags? Yes, you throw them away because you don't need them The only free plastic bags should be for meat, fish and veg bought loose because of cross contamination. If you have any then reuse or buy a 10p bag for life or a hessian one or use a rucksuck. Mobile phones - recycle via various charities (Age Concern, Red Cross, etc.) lots even send you a prepaid jiffy bag, google it. Computers, printers, plenty of groups recycle these. Household items, use FreeCycle. Trouble is, people are just so darned lazy in the throw-away society that we've become.

its a throwaway society that we have been made.
The big companies want us to keep consuming products at a faster rate, with built in obsolescence. If we consumed a good deal less, and used fewer resources in the first place, recycling woul be much less of an issue.
The real problems are at the production and consumption parts of the cycle....but we don't really want to consume less at present.(especially the affluent).

[greenilex]

You don't really want the RF stiff (and not flagging) with the bodily fluids of overenthusiastic children......I mean the proper red stuff, do you?

Fingers crossed, eh.

[MrGongGong]

But that may be as little 30%.

The Davis-Cameron poll illustrates the point very well. Davis came top in the first round, when just the MPs voted, with 62 to Cameron's 56. When Clarke was eliminated, Cameron's support shot up to 90, while Davis's actually dropped back to 57 - not much of an endorsement of that 'genuine and positive support' that would have carried him to a triumphant victory under FPTP, was it? The third round was the postal ballot and not comparable anyway.

I always understood that Cameron was elected by a system of AV
which makes his objection to changing the system ridiculous
but in reality we are going to have to wait many many years to get rid of this stupid system we have

[scottycelt]

But that may be as little 30%.

The Davis-Cameron poll illustrates the point very well. Davis came top in the first round, when just the MPs voted, with 62 to Cameron's 56. When Clarke was eliminated, Cameron's support shot up to 90, while Davis's actually dropped back to 57 - not much of an endorsement of that 'genuine and positive support' that would have carried him to a triumphant victory under FPTP, was it? The third round was the postal ballot and not comparable anyway.

That's a very fair and valid point!

However, it still cannot be denied that actually more Tory MPs initially wanted Davies as their leader rather than Cameron, That's what I mean by 'genuine and positive' support. Cameron''s recovery in the next ballot was due almost entirely to possibly grudging 'second choice' votes from Clarke's elimination.

Never mind, in the above example both systems would have failed. It would be great if someone could discover one which ensured that moderate, pro-European Tory MPs (if not virtually extinct) were always elected as leader of the Party?

[french frank]

Cameron''s recovery in the next ballot was due almost entirely to possibly grudging 'second choice' votes from Clarke's elimination.

I agree with your implication of silk purses and sow's ears. However, the suggestion that the transferred support from Clarke to Cameron was, in that context, in any way grudging is unsustainable. On the contrary, in that context, it looks 'genuine and positive'.

The 'context' I mention is nothing more than 'the available choices': had Clarke not stood in the first place, given the then available choices, Cameron would have been close to victory on the first ballot. My understanding of the rules is that if he had passed the 50% mark there would have been no ballot of the membership.

It all comes back, not merely to preferences, but to the strength of preferences. For many it would have been the case here that they marginally preferred Clarke to Cameron; perhaps. Yet faced only with the choice between Davis and Cameron there would have been nothing at all 'grudging' about their support for Cameron.

It is an altogether good thing that people should be given the widest possible option for their first choice; but if people really have a genuine and positive support for that one candidate, they have the option of putting a '1' by that candidate's name and stop there. If everyone did this, it would be FPTP.

Under FPTP, all that happens is that many Green supporters will vote Labour - tactically, almost certainly grudgingly - as the best means of not getting a Tory MP. Similarly many Tories may vote LibDem to avoid a Labour win. It is still only a 'grudging' second choice, even if FPTP forces it upon them.