The Red Flag's flagging a bit... Lol.

[teamsaint]

frenchie will know better than I but our Council (and therefor all Councils I imagine) have been set targets to meet as regards landfill reduction and recycling. I know our Council has won some awards for achieving or beating the targets. Also, here in Wales free carrier bags in supermarkets have been abolished, you are expected to use your own longlife ones or be charged for the plastic ones. Very sensible.

If an elderly or infirm person struggles with a bin the Council collect from the back door.

well nobody told our lot. (in case anybody is worried, we actually do help them out when the need arises !!)

As for the carrier bag nonsense, this really is government distraction. They really should concentrate on REAL waste issues... endlessly replaced technology products, white goods that can't be economically repaired, built in obsolesence, an economy built on very high consumption, unbelievable and unnecessary packaging, cars with double the fuel consumption of the level that can be achieved, utter failure to invest in renewable energy,failure to invest in decent local public transport..... I won't go on.

[french frank]

Oh, well, why not?

We are asked to choose the best single candidate to represent us, nothing else.

That's a description of FPTP, in your own words, yes.

The more democratic aim is to find the single candidate who commands the support of the majority of those voting. Where there are only two candidates, FPTP is ideal. Where there are three or more candidates there are difficulties with FPTP. So a number of voting systems have been devised by which, in various ways, the field is first reduced to the two most popular candidates; and then those who wish to choose between them, do so. The resulting winner will have the support of 50% of those who have participated in the final round.

Thus was the field for Tory party leader reduced to Davis (the front runner) and Cameron; and in the final round Cameron emerged as the winner with 67% of the popular vote. Thus was the field for Labour Party leader reduced to David Miliband (the front runner) and Ed Miliband; and in the final round, Ed Miliband emerged as the winner by the narrow margin of 50.65%

AV is such a system but the drawback is that it does not result in proportionality of seats. Nor, of course, does FPTP. But FPTP additionally does not guarantee that the elected candidate has the support of the majority of voters.

[Anna]

The ban on carrier bags (which is only in Wales) isn't nonsense. Just go for a walk and see how many supermarket bags are just discarded, look along motorways, train tracks. Think of the damage they can do to wildlife. Ever been on a beach and seen them washed up? It may be a small step in the eco battle but at least it's a start

[Lateralthinking1]

I don't understand this thread. It seems to be about rubbish singing, rubbish, discarded carrier bags and a discarded electoral system.

[teamsaint]

The ban on carrier bags (which is only in Wales) isn't nonsense. Just go for a walk and see how many supermarket bags are just discarded, look along motorways, train tracks. Think of the damage they can do to wildlife. Ever been on a beach and seen them washed up? It may be a small step in the eco battle but at least it's a start

no problem about the carrier bags...only that there is SO much more to do, that won't get done, i'm afraid....and with the charge they can get away with not doing all the things they should be doing, by looking busy on carrier bags.
I don't think it IS a start, sadly I think its a sop and a distraction. Think of the toxins released with every mobile phone that gets chucked in a landfill, or every mineral water bottle thrown away.

Ireland had this years ago, and i really doubt that its mad a scrap of difference.

As I pointed out earlier, with a 70 times more waste being produced during production, (much of it incidentally in very poor and vulnerable areas) over consumption is where to cure our waste problems....but that involves real sacrifice, or a very different type of economics. This type of consumption pattern may well be forced on us before we vote for it........

[teamsaint]

I don't understand this thread. It seems to be about rubbish singing, rubbish, discarded carrier bags and a discarded electoral system.

throwaway remarks not welcome here !!

[french frank]

throwaway remarks not welcome here !!

Nor recycled arguments.

[teamsaint]

as an example of conscience salving and distraction....

someone i know well works in a VERY posh school. Its an "eco school" with all the badges and slogans. Nice. And they do the low energy light bulb stuff (all to the good, of course).

And every holiday and every half term,most of the kids and families fly off very long distances on expensive holidays in a glut of conspicuous consumption.
Nice. Green. Not.

Oh and most of the families drive huge gas guzzling 4 X 4's, while the kids at the state schools mostly go by bus.

[Simon]

No need to ban bags at all. Just do what the Co-op's been doing for years: make them out of 100% biodegradable materials. It works: they start disintegrating in about 18 months and after 3 years there's nothing left.

[french frank]

No need to ban bags at all. Just do what the Co-op's been doing for years: make them out of 100% biodegradable materials. It works: they start disintegrating in about 18 months and after 3 years there's nothing left.

Reduce, reuse, recycle.

The bags still have to be made, and that uses energy.

[Lateralthinking1]

Good points. Tescos though. I can't count the times I have been on the bus and had to retrieve fifteen items as they have fallen through the base of the bag. These days I use my rucksack.

On the 4 x 4 s and planes - absolutely. I do wholly agree with most of the greening in principle - not the light bulbs. I find it though genuinely upsetting that I'm having to do it to subsidise the damage caused by those. It is a kind of serfdom while the nobs carry on with their earth massacre regardless. They might as well be gesticulating with the V sign.

[teamsaint]

Good points. Tescos though. I can't count the times I have been on the bus and had to retrieve fifteen items as they have fallen through the base of the bag. These days I use my rucksack.

On the 4 x 4 s and planes - absolutely. I do wholly agree with most of the greening in principle - not the light bulbs. I do though find it genuinely upsetting that I'm having to do it to subsidise the damage caused by those. It is a kind of serfdom while the nobs carry on with their earth massacre regardless. They might as well be gesticulating with the V sign.

oh yes, it IS a kind of serfdom.. sure you don't need to but check out the UK income distribution stats sometime....its the rich doing the consuming.
Incidentally, Ever noticed how pollution is caused, according to the News, by cheap air travel....its never the expensive sort !!

here we go. http://www.poverty.org.uk/09/index.shtml
Don't suppose that bottom ten percent, with 1% of total income are over consuming... probably glad of a free carrier bag also !!

[Anna]

No need to ban bags at all. Just do what the Co-op's been doing for years: make them out of 100% biodegradable materials. It works: they start disintegrating in about 18 months and after 3 years there's nothing left.

And what do you do with all your Co-Op bags? Yes, you throw them away because you don't need them The only free plastic bags should be for meat, fish and veg bought loose because of cross contamination. If you have any then reuse or buy a 10p bag for life or a hessian one or use a rucksuck. Mobile phones - recycle via various charities (Age Concern, Red Cross, etc.) lots even send you a prepaid jiffy bag, google it. Computers, printers, plenty of groups recycle these. Household items, use FreeCycle. Trouble is, people are just so darned lazy in the throw-away society that we've become.

[MrGongGong]

We never accept plastic bags
we bought some "parachute silk" ones which are massively hardwearing and easily compressed
so need to have any of from shops at all

raw fish ? wrap it up in newspaper

[scottycelt]

Oh, well, why not? That's a description of FPTP, in your own words, yes.

Welcome back from the wheelie bins and plastic bags, FF!

I started quoting messages in full when I was once accused of being 'selective' ... now, can you believe I could be guilty of such a horrid thing on this forum? ... so I thought I'd be really cunning and play safe. How wrong can one be!

No, we are only asked to elect ONE person to represent our constituency at a General Election whichever system is adopted. AV is only a different way to end up with possibly a different person.

You refer to 'the support of the majority'. Well, hopefully that would be true under any system where that is possible and under FPTP it often isn't. However it cannot be denied (surely!) that even in a minority result under FPTP the most popular candidate comes first and is duly elected. This will not necessarily be the case under PR sytems. You call the eventual result the support of the majority, others see it rather differently. Rightly or wrongly, wafflers like myself cannot grasp how it is any more 'democratic' to eventually end up with, say, the runner-up in the initial poll rather than the leader. While I readily see that the idea is to attain a 'consensus' candidate, does that candidate REALLY command the 'support' of the majority?

At least under FPTP the person who has the genuine and most positive support of any candidate always wins!