Verdi and/or Wagner

[JimD]

Any one else catch this discussion on R4 Start the Week (c.20 minutes in).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0150m8c/Start_the_Week_Simon_Jenkins_History_of_England_and_the_National_Poet_of_Wales_Gillian_Clarke/

I know we don't have to choose, but I was slightly irritated that there was no mention of Meistersinger, amid all the talk of Verdi's concern with 'humanity', in contrast to Wagner's gods, dwarves etc.

I'll venture to suggest that there is more humanity in Meistersinger than in all of Verdi put together. And then get me coat.

[Mandryka]

Didn't hear it, but your precis does make my hackles rise, somewhat.

I think people who claim that Verdi is more 'humane' than Wagner probably haven't listened to Wagner very closely. His 'people' may be gods, giants, dwarfs, knights and kings (though not excusively so) but they are placed in very human situations and react to those situations in a very human way.

Personally, i find the dilemma of Wotan/Brunnhilde/Siegmund/Sieglinde in Walkure vastly more moving than anything in Verdi.

Not sure, though, whether I'd go along with what you say about Meistersinger: for me, the treatment of Beckmesser is unneccessarily harsh and doesn't belong in something that is formally a comedy. And I'm not sure that any modern audience finds it easy to reconcile the 'benign' side of Sachs with the hard-headed taskmaster who physically chastises his apprentice.

[Roslynmuse]

I only caught part of this, and part of the Pierre-Laurent Aimard/Boulez discussion that followed, but not for the first time in recent weeks it struck me that R4 was straying onto R3 territory, with no concession or apology for being intellectually stimulating (whether one agreed or not with the viewpoint under discussion), and before midday too.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Not sure, though, whether I'd go along with what you say about Meistersinger: for me, the treatment of Beckmesser is unneccessarily harsh and doesn't belong in something that is formally a comedy. And I'm not sure that any modern audience finds it easy to reconcile the 'benign' side of Sachs with the hard-headed taskmaster who physically chastises his apprentice.

I agree: Wagner's "humour" can seem aggressive and heavy-footed.

But what about the real hero of Meistersinger: David? That moment when he realizes that it's Sach's "saint-name day" and he's forgotten to get him a gift, so offers the only thing he has at hand: his lunch! Touching, funny and so human.

Best Wishes.

[JimD]

Yes, mostly I agree Mandryka (my comments were a touch tongue in cheek.)
I have read that Beckmesser, and Wagner's treatment of him, derived from the latter's anti-Semitism.
I must say however that corporal punishment never did me any harm. Harumph.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I have read that Beckmesser, and Wagner's treatment of him, derived from the latter's anti-Semitism.

Yes, P L Rose's book on Wagner is full of such suggestions, not all of them entirely convincing. Beckmesser was originally called "Hanns Lick" in the first draughts of Wagner's libretto, and was a caricature of the critic Hanslick (who was invited to the first public reading of the libretto by Wagner. Hanslick didn't see the funny side and his previous reservations about Wagner turned to open hostility. Water off a duck's back to Wagner, but Bruckner's contemporary reputation as a composer was caught in the crossfire.)

Beckmesser's treatment does Wagner no favours, but it's in the line of many such characters: I think Malvolio is disproportionately "punished" in a similar way in Twelfth Night.

[Mandryka]

Yes, P L Rose's book on Wagner is full of such suggestions, not all of them entirely convincing. Beckmesser was originally called "Hanns Lick" in the first draughts of Wagner's libretto, and was a caricature of the critic Hanslick (who was invited to the first public reading of the libretto by Wagner. Hanslick didn't see the funny side and his previous reservations about Wagner turned to open hostility. Water off a duck's back to Wagner, but Bruckner's contemporary reputation as a composer was caught in the crossfire.)

Beckmesser's treatment does Wagner no favours, but it's in the line of many such characters: I think Malvolio is disproportionately "punished" in a similar way in Twelfth Night.

I've heard it said that Beckmesser's Prize Song was written as a deliberate parody of the 'wailing' of a cantor. Don't personally believe it - another example of people trying to make Wagner's anti-semitism seem more extreme than it actually was.

Never liked Twelfth Night for the reason you give - Malvolio may be somewhat officious in prosecuting his duties but since when has that actually been a crime? I've never liked rowdy, drunken types who go in for practical jokes, anyway, so my sympathies are largely with Malvolio. Someone once explained to me that T.N. is actually a 'bitter comedy': well, I can see the bitterness, but where are the laughs?

[Chris Newman]

In all the productions I have seen of Die Meistersinger and most productions of Twelfth Night I have felt profound sympathy for Beckmesser and Malvolio. Whilst they are officious, snobbish and annoying as individuals the treatment meted out by the "crowd" goes beyond what is fair and lawful. In both stories attempts to make amends are made in the final scenes to no avail but ordinary good citizens like ourselves are hurt by the sad spectacles and it is right that we should be. It may well be that Shakespeare expects us to feel for Malvolio and I suspect that it is possible that Wagner may have intended some redress of the situation. On the other hand it is equally possible that what was thought funny four hundred or even one hundred years ago is no longer so, though to suggest that mankind is getting better as people would be absolute nonsense.

[Flosshilde]

I would agree with Mandryka in #2 - there is a great deal of humanity in the Ring - & surely that's what it's all about - the discovery of human emotions & ideals? Where is that explored to such a depth in Verdi?

(but I do enjoy Verdi too - but in different way.)