Proposed Public-Sector Strikes ?

[MrGongGong]

For those of us who are self employed and freelance all of this retirement and pensions stuff can seem like another planet. Don't get me wrong, I love what I do but it seems more than a little wrong that I'm expected to pay for people not much older than myself to have early "retirement" at age 55or so! Some people are worn out by their work and deserve more support but (and I'm really going to end up with very few friends !!) Having always had to live with no job security,sick pay,paid holidays etc etc does mean my empathy can be a little stretched at times.it's simply unrealistic for the freelance musician (whom most on here love to listen to) to be able to afford to put aside enough money to give them what would be considered a very basic pension let alone insurance against illness etc etc

(the irony for me being that I'm viewing the messageboard on my phone from a hospital bed where I'm waiting for test results etc self employment is wonderful but there's no sick pay for me so hopefully I can get out of here soon and back to music !!)

[Simon]

Some people just don't get it. There is not enough money to pay. It's that simple.

So there are two options:

1. Keep paying, stop worrying and go bust in a few years and leave the next generation to struggle as best they can;

2. Do something about it.

Some - with reality problems - favour 1, but there is hope from an unexpected source that they will see the light and change their minds before it is too late.

That source is Greece. They did exactly 1, during the socialist false boom years (a bit lke the UK but not to the same extent). They've had a bailout, as the EU didn't want to let the Euro fail or kick out the Greeks form the Euro. But it hasn't worked, and the Germans won't play ball anymore. They can't see the point of throwing even more money down the drain - because make no mistake, the Greeks won't do what's needed - it's too hard for them, and they think like the posters on here " why should I reduce my income/pension?" etc.

So, Greece will default and we'll take a hit - but not, fortunately, as big a hit as some other countries, partly because we didn't lend as much and partly because we aren't in the Eurozone.

If that happens fairly soon, the chances are that people will wake up and see that that is NOT the way we want the UK to go. So these people might just be a bit more sensible - and less selfish - about the need for belt-tightening all round.

[Serial_Apologist]

It's odd that anyone considers normal and acceptable today what Maxwell rightly got pasted for by all sides for raiding the Mirror pension fund.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

...just like most jobs nowadays in the private sector that don't offer the same shorter hours and longer holidays.

The "shorter hours" bit is complete and utter rubbish, unless you measure the job only by pupil contact time. The holidays are longer than other people have, but whenever those who complain about it are asked the question - "Have you considered going in for teaching then?", either they reply firmly that they would not, or they quickly change the subject.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It's odd that anyone considers normal and acceptable today what Maxwell rightly got pasted for by all sides for raiding the Mirror pension fund.

The government is refusing to give figures on the rising teachers' pension fund pot, because they know it will prove the treasury wrong. But we'll find out in the end, and then the government will be highly embarrassed. They really dislike the truth.

[ahinton]

So, Greece will default and we'll take a hit - but not, fortunately, as big a hit as some other countries, partly because we didn't lend as much and partly because we aren't in the Eurozone.

What difference do you really believe that our being outside the Eurozone will make to the extent of that hit on UK? One commentator on this a.m.'s R4 Today programme spoke of the likely hit on the UK economy of up to 25% if the Euro collapses altogether; whilst this is, of course, a much larger issue, the fallout of any nation's default will not be insignificant. The expression used to be "when America sneezes, the world catches a cold"; it's now far more like "if one nation sneezes, many others will catch a cold". As to the amount that Britain lent to Greece, isn't that rather beside the point compared to the amounts that Britian has borrowed from all over the place? - amounts considerably larger than most other European countries have borrowed?

As to the need for "belt-tightening" (in Greece or anywhere else), who actually owns the belt? Most countries are sufficiently indebted that they could not repay their debts if asked; the same is true for many individuals, small businesses, medium to large size coroporations, local authorities, government departments et al; you'll not find any easy solutions along the lines of your "sensible" "less selfish" "belt-tightening" that will do much to chip away at that indebtedness. Not insignificant proportions of some people's state and other pensions, as well as salaries, are being met in part from borrowed funds.

[Richard Tarleton]

> The private sector which is championed by successive governments as been so efficient an example to the public sector on how to run things, has totally messed up on pensions and its now less than sufficient or generous provision is now being equated to the public sector being greedy and unfair.<

as illustrated by the above post #9 barber olly?

I haven't read to the bottom of the thread yet but but am incensed by this post

I belong to one of the few surviving final salary pension schemes. Like those that survive and the many that don't, mine was crippled by Gordon Brown's stealth tax raid in 1997. He took a perfectly healthy private pension sector and wrecked it, because he saw a large pot of money which he could grab without losing too many Labour votes..

I don't see why I should contribute to public sector pensions in addition to my own - they don't contribute to mine - nor why public sector workers should continue to be able to retire at 60.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...0-billion.html , in case anyone's forgotten.

I have to work to 65 and contribute a lot more to my pension as a result of Brown's raid. The reason the private sector's pensions are in trouble is entirely down to the last but one Chancellor of the Exchequer.

[Richard Tarleton]

It's odd that anyone considers normal and acceptable today what Maxwell rightly got pasted for by all sides for raiding the Mirror pension fund.

S_A, Gordon Brown raided everyone's who wasn't in the public sector, see above.

[mangerton]

Some people just don't get it. There is not enough money to pay. It's that simple.

True. But apparently there is still enough to pay vast bonuses to bankers, and still enough to pay pensions and allowances to MPs.

The despicable people who caused the problem are now waving two fingers at the rest of us.

And they have the cheek to say, "We're all in it together."

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

But apparently there is still enough to pay vast bonuses to bankers, and still enough to pay pensions and allowances to MPs.
The despicable people who caused the problem are now waving two fingers at the rest of us.
And they have the cheek to say, "We're all in it together."

A little boy proudly put his pound coin in his piggy bank. A few weeks later, but in another. He was very pleased that he was saving so well.
Then one day, the little boy went to his piggy bank to empty it. The piggy bank said to him:
"Ah, yes, ahem. There's some good news and some bad. The bad news it that I've been talking to some other piggy banks and we agreed to invest in some dodgy deals, and I'm afraid there's nothing left of your money. The good news is that I'm fine."

[scottycelt]

The "shorter hours" bit is complete and utter rubbish, unless you measure the job only by pupil contact time. The holidays are longer than other people have, but whenever those who complain about it are asked the question - "Have you considered going in for teaching then?", either they reply firmly that they would not, or they quickly change the subject.

I do not doubt that teaching is a hard job, especially these days, and, as I have two teachers in my immediate family I get quite a bit of feedback regarding that , believe me.

What really strikes me is the apparent inference that no one else can possibly have such a difficult job as teachers. In my working like I can think of quite a number of ex-colleagues who were former teachers, policemen etc who simply couldn't cope with working in a fast retail environment, and had to look for something else.

I'm sure the great majority of teachers work hard and deserve to be paid the highest remuneration possible. My point is that so do the great majority of the rest of us who contribute in other ways to society!

Many thousands in the private sector have lost jobs or had their benefits and pension entitlements vastly reduced. They were no more responsible for the banking crisis and recent recession than teachers, so why should the latter be shielded from the stark and painful realities of current economic conditions when others are not?

[Serial_Apologist]

Why should anyone, scotty? Surely the point is that some are prepared to fight for what they were told was theirs as of right, which they'd often spent years and years paying into. It's not illegal to join a trade union... yet...

[decantor]

Curious that R.Tarleton's very relevant post (#22) is ignored. Gordon Brown wrecked the nation's private pension schemes at a stroke. Not only that - he used some of the funds thus made available to him to inflate the public sector, thereby keeping unemployment figures artificially low and creating a clientele. To witness now the union chiefs encouraging strike action to demand that public sector pensions be subsidised by the private sector (whose own pensions are in tatters) is frankly sickening. I'm glad we have a government that's prepared to try and unpick the Brown mess, even if I cannot agree with all their actions.

We should not be distracted by an argument over the relative values of the two sectors. Wealth-creation and public services are both essential. But they must be balanced - we can have only the services we can afford. To pretend otherwise is to commit to a fatal debt spiral. If there are sacred cows like the NHS, then other beasts must be led to the altar. Life's like that.

A personal note: I am an ex-teacher, ten years retired. I had chosen to fund my pension(s) privately - not a great decision - and I retired early, partly through exhaustion and the generation gap, and partly because my annuity-based, non-indexed pension seemed destined to decrease if I worked longer. My income is constantly diminished through high inflation and low interest-rates. Life is not as comfortable as I'd hoped. I am not impressed by those who self-righteously refuse to bend to a changed wind - nor, indeed, by bankers and others who haven't even noticed that the wind has changed.

[Richard Tarleton]

Thanks decantor . Either memories are too short, or it's an uncomfortable truth that does not fit in with the current narrative.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

5 years ago, there was a review (Hutton again) into teachers's pensions. There were significant changes. All new entrants to the profession would retire at 65, but existing teachers would have their contracts honoured and could still retire at 60. Contributions increased by agreement, and it was also agreed to monitor the "pot" to ensure it was being funded properly. If it could be shown that funding was falling, there would be further increases payable by employees, but not by employers. All the indications are that the funds have increased, but the government is refusing to release the figures.

Suspicious or what?