Getting old

[Serial_Apologist]

Having thought a little more about this .... mahlerei's mum was lucky to own her home and also to have a loving family, ditto Calum's partner in caring for mum and aunt.

However, there are large numbers of single people without children, married ditto, widows/widowers, etc., or whose children may be estranged or have pre-deceased them or who may have siblings who are equally frail so thre is no family to rally round. What happens to these people (assuming they have no property to sell to fund costs) are they just put in a geriatric ward, even if they are not ill, just frail?

Single without children, and with relatives who keep themselves at a safe distance, this (unless the unexpected and increasingly unlikely were to happen) will I guess be my situation, except for owning a flat (leasehold at present) which deliberately I chose with ground-level entrance in the event of becoming wheelchair-bound. My only anxiety is the dementia that took my mother, at just 10 years older than I now am, coming to me.

[Anna]

S-A, I don't think you should worry about inheriting dementia (having just looked it up on the Alzheimer Society webpage) nor should anyone worry about inheriting Alzheimers, life's worrying enough at times without imagining possible outcomes.

I've, coincedentally, made friends with some elderly people recently, in their 70s and a couple of 80+. I suppose they're lucky in that they are all fit and active but sometimes I think they put much younger people to shame with their enthusiasm and they are so much more open-minded and quite frankly, a darn sight more educated across a wide spectrum that most 40 year olds I know. It has certainly revised my opinion of the 'elderly'

However, they are the lucky ones and there are far too many pensioners living in poverty whose choice at the moment seems to be eating or heating and I've gone completely off-topic but I watched last night a programme about Meals on Wheels (WRVS) with the Hairy Bikers who were trying to get some new volunteers as most of the ladies delivering were in their 80s and no-one, hardly a single person, expressed any interest in helping that generation. It seems once you get old you become invisible.

[Serial_Apologist]

S-A, I don't think you should worry about inheriting dementia (having just looked it up on the Alzheimer Society webpage) nor should anyone worry about inheriting Alzheimers, life's worrying enough at times without imagining possible outcomes.

I've, coincedentally, made friends with some elderly people recently, in their 70s and a couple of 80+. I suppose they're lucky in that they are all fit and active but sometimes I think they put much younger people to shame with their enthusiasm and they are so much more open-minded and quite frankly, a darn sight more educated across a wide spectrum that most 40 year olds I know. It has certainly revised my opinion of the 'elderly'

However, they are the lucky ones and there are far too many pensioners living in poverty whose choice at the moment seems to be eating or heating and I've gone completely off-topic but I watched last night a programme about Meals on Wheels (WRVS) with the Hairy Bikers who were trying to get some new volunteers as most of the ladies delivering were in their 80s and no-one, hardly a single person, expressed any interest in helping that generation. It seems once you get old you become invisible.

Working as "we" are said to the longest hours in Europe doesn't help when it comes to looking out for the elderly. It was very worrying to hear a commentator on telly yesterday, who seemed to know what he was talking about, predicting that the older generations will eventually have pinned on them the blame for looking after themselves and, through political choice (as younger generations will see it) putting in place the system that took care of their parents and grandparents but leaves them, the young, indebted long-term to universities and estate agents without the prospect of lifelong pension-dependable careers. He was saying that this is likely to exacerbate inter-generational alienation in old age.

[Spatny]

I have a similar situation with my mother. The only difference is that I cleaned up and modernised her flat, and I am now renting her flat out to pay for her retirement home fees. She was very reluctant to enter a home, but now enjoys it. The secret is to find a good home. This one has lots of good food, entertainment. Its really like staying in a good hotel, and it costs £550 a week. She looks better & fitter than she did 3 months ago.

[marthe]

This whole subject is complex and fraught with all kinds of feelings conscious and otherwise. My husband had to take care of his father long distance, which meant crossing the Atlantic several times a year to make sure that Dad was in good hands. After my mother-in-law died, 11 years ago, Dad spent his last years in a care/nursing home (what's the difference? they're all called nursing homes here) after it became impossible for him to stay in his own home. He'd had several falling episodes where he'd been on the floor (or fallen into the bathtub...no water) and been found many hours later by Meals on Wheels or the daily care giver who came to help him get dressed. Dad died in 2005. In 2007, my mother began to need constant care after she had had several bad falls and was getting a bit loopy, mixing up her meds etc. I looked after her full time until it became quite evident that she needed full-time professional nursing care. She's now in a nursing home that's minutes away from our house. I've many brothers and sisters who live as far away as Moscow so I'm the "first responder" who has to see to the day-to-day stuff such as making sure that her special phone is working or that her lift chair is repaired/replaced. Dad died, mercifully, in his sleep last October. My mother is now lonely, bored, and frustrated. I can't seem to please her or make her happy.

I can't begin to comment about the system in England, nor do I want to bore the pants of anyone by explaining the complexity of the US system. Needless to say, care of the elderly is a problem on both sides of the Atlantic, especially for a generation whose parents are living far longer than in the past. My own parents never had to look after there own parents because their parents either died young (my maternal grandfather) or an unmarried daughter looked after them (my paternal grandparents).

[Dave2002]

This is perhaps not a subject area that I, or others, may want to comment on or read about. It brings our own mortality into focus. Unfortunately that is a significant part of the problem.

I have some expeience in these matters. One thing I will say is that if anyone you love ends up in hospital make sure that they are treated as well as possible, if you can. The tales of people being left unable to look after themselves are, sadly, true. Patients will be given food and drink, but the number of times I've seen drinks left where the patient can't reach them, or food left, but no attempt made to help the patient feed - many find this really difficult for various reasons, will certainly require more than two hands for the counting.

Also, somewhat surprisingly, not everyone is prepared to stand up to the hospital staff, and tell them what needs to be done. I've seen intelligent and composed older people visiting hospitals adopt a policy of not reporting problems with their relatives because they maybe think a non-interference policy is best. It probably isn't in many cases.

I've seen hospital staff ignore bleeping monitors or disconnect them in order to continue writing up notes. Also, in NHS hospitals, there may appear to be quite a lot of staff on wards, but only a small proportion are fully trained nurses. Many are care assistants, orderlies, porters etc. Finding a doctor is often extremely hard!

If your friend or relative is well enough to be moved into a home, that can be better for them, but it's important to get a good one, and in the right area. Hospitals will try to move patients out if they consider them to be "medically fit", which is a dubious term. Someone who is medically fit may still be very dependent. Also before diischarge a patient should be medically stable, and again some hospitals put pressure to get this decision as soon as possible. Some regions will actually pay for the care in the home, but it is very important not to allow a hospital to discharge a patient to a home unless you are satisfied that the home is the best and most appropriate one. Administrators will simply try to get elderly people out of hospital, and if they end up in the wrong place, it'll be your problem to subsequently move them on to somewhere better. In the limit hospitals can get patients moved, but it's well worth not just allowing them to drop people off at the nearest home, which may be neither good for the patient nor for the relatives.

There should be a social worker in each hospital handling patient discharge, and working with them can be very worthwhile, but they are under pressure to get things moving. Fairly good outcomes, both medically and financial, are possible, but require a lot of persistence.

People who have no friends or relatives to fight for them may have a really hard time, which is where I think this thread started, but it's tough even for those who do.

[Anna]

Referring to Spatny's mother and her carehome costs of £550pw. I'm assuming these are London or S.E. rates and therefore anyone selling property in that area would have the means to pay an amount like that, not so easy in other Regions of the UK to eke it out long-term bearing in mind average house prices but presumably carehome costs are much lower?

I've found an article which says that the "baby boomers" have just got to pay for care themselves (i.e. selling homes/assets) and why not, I don't think anyone these days expects an 'inheritence' upon a parent's death (I'm talking about ordinary people) do they?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/8326605/Baby-boomers-must-pay-for-their-own-elderly-care.html

[mercia]

don't think the sale of my small flat would keep me in a home for very long. what happens when the money runs out? do they gently wheel you out onto the pavement?

[Mary Chambers]

This is all so depressing! I was lucky with my own parents. My father looked after my mother (disabled, though not severely, for many years) until she died at almost ninety. She did have a few months in a home before her death. It was within walking distance for my father and he visited every day. Shortly after my mother died the home closed down, so it could have been a different story. My father then lived alone until he died at 94. I don't think he could have gone on much longer, so his death was well-timed. They lived about fifteen miles away from me so I went to see them regularly, but never had to care for them or even make decisions. I'm grateful for that, because I don't think I'd have been very good at it. (My brother, 200 miles away, took little notice of my worries or their problems. I find this is a common story.)

Now I am the one who's getting on, and I live alone since my children left home twenty-ish years ago - my husband died young. They are 200 miles away. I have no family closer than that. I have a few good friends, but they are roughly my age, in their late 60s or early 70s. So far I manage well, but I do wonder what will happen when I become more frail, or have to go into hospital. It's a frightening prospect, so I try not to think about it! My sons will do their best, but they have demanding jobs, and are simply not here most of the time. I encouraged them to move south, and I'm glad they did, but sometimes it would be nice to have someone a bit nearer, if only for the occasional bit of shopping, or changing the light bulbs. It's easier to ask family for help than it is to ask friends or neighbours, however nice they are.

[salymap]

Sorry about the distance your sons are away Mary. I am lucky in that I have a local cousin who actually did what you mention, changed an overhead light bulb for me yesterday and brought in a little bit of shopping.
I obviously do my main shop while I can but they are there for me although now in their seventies themselves.

[Stillhomewardbound]

This is a very timely thread and I was on the verge of starting one very similar.

I'm 48, persistently single and terrified at the future ahead of me.

I got knocked off the career ladder nine years ago and have not seemed able to clamber back on to it since. Consequently I have virtually nothing by way of savings and virtually no pension provision.

I will shortly receive an inheritence which will ease the pressure for a while, but a portion of that I will 'invest' in taking a year or two off in the hope of pursuing freelance photography and journalism options and developing a more sustainable work and revenue stream.

Even if I were to succeed in that respect I am only left with not much more than a fifteen year window in which to somehow mark an improvement in my retirement prospects.

My lifestyle has never been luxuriant and I'm lucky to be fairly parsimonius, but even so, I'd rather not spend my later years in a state of constant fret.

So, that's my story for the now, with apologies to Lateralthinking who has had a much, much rougher ride.

SHB

[Anna]

ShB, not being able to make provision for old age affects so many, but upon reaching a certain age there doesn't seem to be any easy answer. I know people, low paid supermarket workers, mainly women in their late 50s, divorced, generally in Housing Association properties, working on tills/shelf stacking usually in 4 hour shifts, not a hope in hell of putting anything aside, the State Pension will be their only income (luckily the retirement age has been scrapped so it's a case of work till you drop) If you have been thrifty and put something aside (or maybe have received a small inheritence) then no Benefits (not even Council Tax help) until you get under the threshold of £16,000 savings. So this is because your savings are assumed to yield a weekly “tariff income” of £1 for every £250 of savings. This equates to an assumed annual tariff income of approximately £50 for every £250 of savings, equivalent to an interest rate of 20%, which is clearly absurd and unattainable in the real world. Nonetheless, this is the basis the government uses for their calculations.

This assumes you are fit and healthy because there are various Allowances (eg in the case of Alzheimers) that can be claimed where the threshold is a lot higher.

A firm where I worked introduced Stakeholders Pensions, as they were required to do by law, and on reading the contributions required the older staff realised that if they paid in the required contributions to enable them to access a private pension it would take the majority of their monthly salary for a piffling amount (in one case a pension of £14pm.) The truth is that one should start saving for old age when you are in your mid-twenties but of course at that age you think you will be forever young and beautiful and immortal. It's heartbreaking to see the shopping baskets of some elderly people, not only are they in fuel poverty (annual fuel payment has been cut) but also they are in food poverty (ok, inflation in food prices is global, nothing can be done about it) but - cross referencing to the Public Sector strike thread - there's certainly no sympathy for them when the Pension went up by £4.25 (before tax!) this year and they've worked and paid contributions their whole life.

The whole tax and benefit system needs shaking up - but that's another rant for another day!

[Stillhomewardbound]

Quite, Anna. What was the statistic that was established a couple of years ago? I thini it was that Tesco's chief exec had a renumeration package that was worth 600 times more than the wage of the lowliest shelf-stacker.

[Mahlerei]

Dave2002

Your points are well made; I have seen the same thing, with patients desperate for a commode while nurses ignore the bleepers and chat among themselves. That said, the treatment itself - in mum's case - was successful, so no quibbles there. (The botched eye op was done elsewhere.) But I do agree, get out of hospital as quickly as possible.

Anna

Costs vary enormously, and I can assure you £550 pw is not unusual. We have calculated that mum's money will run out in about five years; what then?

[Stillhomewardbound]

<<< But I do agree, get out of hospital as quickly as possible >>>

Wel, that was what happened to my poor old Dad.

Went in for a small break to his femur ... got mrsa ... transferred to another hospital for recuperation (and an environnment of indifference and neglect, poor sanitary conditions etc, being shipped to a fro for dermatology appointments) ... then back to his original hospital in a critical condition, on the verge of cardiac failure with shingles. Additionally, major leg ulcers due to fluid retention/incapacity and the final coup de grace ... a three week lockdown of his ward due to a persistent outbreak of the norovirus in which we were not allowed to visit.

End result ... five months of misery until he'd finally had enough and under his own terms and with a smalll degree of his dignity intact, he let go.

Half the problem is, I believe, we have achieved a level of clinical excellence that would be wholly admirable, but for the fact that, more and more, hospitals are failing on the very basics of hospital care, such as keeping patients clean, giving them regular physio and actively promoting healing.