Getting old

[Guest]

Having spent the past year dealing with my ailing mother, social services, the NHS and care/nursing homes I've been sobered by the tough choices we'll ALL face down the line. First off, a botched eye operation caused all sorts of complications for mum - the trust denied all responsibility but a suit for negligence is now being pursued - and the cash-strapped social services haven't been able to help very much. The NHS has been remarkable though, and have brought mum back from the brink of heart failure twice now.

And then there was the question of care, which has necessitated the sale of mum's house. That has been a long and arduous process in a flat housing market, but it's finally been sold. Looking for care/nursing homes is pretty distressing too, as the level of provision varies so widely. Mum is now comfrtable in a pleasant home nearby, where she is happy and well cared for. But it comes at a price - a very steep price - that's only possible because she has a house to sell.

Is this what we all have to look forward to?

[salymap]

I see a time Mahlerei in your lifetime if n ot mine, when elderly folk will be offered a choice as mentioned by you or a quiet visit to a white van with soft music and comfortable beds where the person walks up the steps at the back, and leaves, after a soothing pill, at the front in a box.

Just think, a little more money saved by the State with pension costs, NHS, etc all wiped out, the old can[we hope] rest in oblivion from pain, the relatives won't have to sell the house.

I know you wouldn't think that way Mahlerei, it will come though.

PS Have I got Brave New World or 1984 on my brain perhaps?

[mercia]

Mum is now comfrtable in a pleasant home nearby, where she is happy and well cared for

........ which is the best you can hope for. Sounds like you've had a tough time. Some of these places are incredibly expensive aren't they. I realise now how very lucky I was with my late father that he was determined, come what may, to stay in his own home to the end, which he very nearly achieved. Best wishes.

[vinteuil]

mahlerei - all best wishes.
I'm afraid I feel very lucky that both my parents died fairly rapidly (he instantaneously, she after a month or so) without being "a burden" on me and my brother, or the state. It's an awful business, and no-one seems to have any clever answers as to how care should be funded. Hope you're coping all right...

[Mahlerei]

Sal

Have you seen Soylent Green? An even less palatable solution to old age :)

mercia

Yes, it's been an exhausting process but at least we have a good outcome. I worry about those who are less fortunate - what choices do they have? And one has to be very persistent in untangling red tape and trying to get various piople/departments to co-ordinate care.

[Lateralthinking1]

You have my sympathy and best wishes Mahlerai. It really isn't at all easy for any of the people involved. Both my parents are in their early eighties and claim to be in reasonable health. I am their only offspring and have lived next door to them since 2005. This property became empty then. I was desperate to leave the flat where I lived. While I had to take on a new mortgage and had reservations about being quite so close, it seemed to make sense at the time for us all. I was in work. We could support each other. Then we were attacked. The first way in which the Government started to smash up our lives was through the job cuts. At 47 in 2010, I found that after 25 years of solid work reports but a variable sick leave record on account of an anxiety condition, still pretty good in the circumstances, that this wasn't enough for it. Everyone had to reapply for their jobs and sick leave was to be the thing that they would punish me on. At the same time they took an axe to compensation in redundancy. The way they manipulated me and others out was to say that we could go by the end of the year voluntarily with just one third of the compensation entitlements we had accrued or wait until we were very likely to be selected out, having to go with just 15% of compensation. Everyone in the workplace appeared exceedingly tense with mistrust all round. Any happiness went.

So it was a gamble but one in which if we stayed and hoped we were likely to lose most. In my case, I would have had to sell my home soonest at a time when my parents were becoming more physically vulnerable and move away. Obviously I felt compelled through sense to take the voluntary payment. But from the word go, my mother refused to accept that this was the sensible option. She became very difficult indeed while my father was also far from convinced. They don't have much money other than their small property but they attempted to bribe me to stay on. I thought no. I'm not having them paying out so that the Government can then get rid of me with hardly anything at all. So as the Government tried its utmost to push us out, my parents were doing their utmost to push me in and towards financial ruin. I had nobody close to turn to for emotional support. It ended up with my parents, with whom I have always been close, having explosive arguments with me until there was a lengthy period of silence which was so disturbing to me I ended up being taken by paramedics in the night to hospital. That had never happened before. Senior Civil Servants did as much as they could do not to engage with me throughout these developments. Ultimately what happened was a signal to them that my condition had for some unfathomable reason become suddenly severe. In fact, they sent me off to a psychiatrist in Harley Street to underpin that what they and the Government were doing was entirely unconnected.

In the many months that followed, I did my best to show to my parents that I was not a waster. I got the money into safe places, applied for lots of jobs unsuccessfully, claimed benefit for the maximum of six months, continued to try to write to my union and civil servants to explain the position and get some sort of message of humanity. The latter though was never forthcoming. The harder I worked on it, the more they ignored me or twisted the facts to defend an immoral position. In the meantime, my father who had been talked by a neighbour into signing a bit of paper to enable an extension to a house to go ahead sat irritably as tonnes of earth were removed up to his boundary. My mother was so intimidated by it on one day that she left the house and disappeared. Seeing that neither was capable of dealing with all of our concerns that damage from vibration had been caused to their property, I had to take it on. To keep it short, I won't go into detail but I found just how far neighbours and local authorities are likely to go not to be helpful. No one gave a toss if the house had been damaged. Because I pursued the matter in reasonable, conventional ways - they don't get you very far - I was depicted as being half right and half wrong. My mother actually made a point of saying to the Council at their most unhelpful that she hoped that we wouldn't all be seen as troublemakers. Meanwhile, a suggestion from me that we might move - "you don't have to but I wonder if it might not be for the best, there is absolutely no obligation on you" - was greeted with acceptance. Then we all drove into the middle of nowhere and there they decided to show me how awful they considered everywhere else. More upset then as I asked why they just didn't tell me directly.

We had to speak about inheritance. I had never intended to raise the subject at all - I had focussed on my salary and pension - and it was incredibly difficult. Again I emphasised that it was entirely up to them where it went but it would be helpful to know a little about the arrangements. Would they be sure to get a professional involved so that it didn't go to the Government? We had to speak about future care. My mother emphasised that the house might not go to me eventually as they could need the money for care homes, not that they welcomed the idea. I accepted it - and it was all so emotionally gut-wrenching I cannot begin to describe - while adding that I would want to care for them to the extent that I could. This was most definitely not wanted. They didn't want me ever to care for them for both their reasons and mine. Again, I felt the huge blow of rejection. Being unemployed, we are all nearer to each other for the entire day. My confidence was rocked to the point that I wouldn't and won't generally go beyond the local roads. Occasionally, my father has driven us into the country where we have managed for a while to escape a living hell. Indeed, this forum is the only other area in which I can locate my lighter side. To prove their hardiness, and to help, my parents are inclined to want to provide assistance in practical ways as if I am a seven year old child. I have appreciated that kindness while it also feels like some sort of horrible power struggle. It was many decades ago that they did such things for me.

Then they decided that they would start to pay me money monthly to help. I should have it now rather than later. While on one level this was an enormous relief, on another it just made me feel abysmal. I said no to it on account of the fact that I didn't need it now but they insisted. That was August and the most important point about it was what it said emotionally. It seemed that they had fully accepted that I really wasn't to blame. Cue September, a matter of perhaps three weeks after this development. They begin to have regular thought exchanges in my company about offspring generally staying close to their parents just to get their money and, quote, "waiting for them to drop down dead". They can't see how this in any way might upset me. They do everything to help me, they say, and seem oblivious to my emotions. We are currently not speaking again. I have rejected their money and them. I just can't handle it anymore. The thing that matters to me is a feeling that they still like me but I don't feel that they do. It is all about maintaining their roles and a sense of duty. I can't relate to it. I can't relate to the fact that having lost my income and my dignity, I am now being depicted as a thief beside a death bed when it was actually the Government that stole from me and tried to kill me off. They were really my guardian angels but they have turned in this year into people who seem emotionally hateful towards me. In turn, I feel hateful towards them. There is no scope for my caring approaches and responsible rationale.

If it ends like this, one thing is for certain. I will find those who did this to us and take whatever action I think appropriate.

[salymap]

Lat thinking 1, so sorry for your sad story. Reading about homes and the problems in finding a good one, I hope I can finish my life in my little home although the prospect of being looked after might sound attractive. At least it is paidforand I have no stairs to botherabout, local relatives and, at the moment,
free transport when I need to visit the local hospital. I do count my blessings, such as they are.

[Lateralthinking1]

mercia - The union believes I have always had morality on my side but not a legal case. It therefore wouldn't support me in the courts. The position of the Government and senior civil servants is that I left voluntarily. It was entirely my choice and a pity that a number of anxieties "compounded". The "voluntary" scheme was not open to people in other Departments. At the time, colleagues elsewhere thought that we were privileged for being offered it. However, on the day that I signed on the dotted line under real strain, some in my Department knew more than me. They knew that it had been agreed in principle that any redundancy terms the following year would not involve an 85% reduction as threatened but a 40% reduction. I was never told because I just so happened to be in the union the senior civil service and the Government hated with a vengeance.

When I discovered that this was the case in January, I took the matter up with the union and then the new Permanent Secretary. I said I had been misled. Her predecessor had scarpered with his second in command, both effectively on promotion. The guy had actually sorted himself out a new job on the day that I was sent to Harley Street. Presumably he didn't want to be there for any lawsuits that occurred. Lengthy correspondence though got me nothing other than a defence of the original position. In July I tabled four FOI enquiries with the Cabinet Office. Information please on what advice it gave to the Department about the arrangements for its voluntary scheme in Autumn 2010, including legal protections for people with anxiety and/or depression. What paperwork informed the decision that enabled the Head of the Civil Service and the Permanent Secretary to write to staff in that autumn to say that no one would retain the level of compensation payments they actually ultimately introduced?

Why when we had left, and the new terms were finally announced in December 2010, did Francis Maude in his statement to Parliament consistently avoid mentioning aspects of the whole package, including the retention after all of higher payments that would not go down well inside his party and with the wider public? What was the Cabinet Office briefing there? And why have they consistently said that the terms are stricter than those that would have been introduced by Labour when as it turns out - and I have the evidence for this - that isn't the case. Regrettably the same old mind games have continued and it has been like psychological torture. First, they attempted to merge the four enquiries into one so that presumably they could say it was too expensive to reply. Someone warned me of this strategy so I argued against it. They ignored me - it was as if I hadn't said it - but after persistent e-mails they gave me a date for "a" reply. This never arrived. I tried again. They gave me another date for reply. Again no reply was received. Now I hear that the delay has been caused because of a "debate" about what information to release.

The answer should have been written within 20 working days. Today is Day 43. Meanwhile Francis Maude and the Cabinet Office are rolling out Phase 2 of FOI with the view that every other organisation should be effective and more open.

[Anna]

I assume with Lat's redundancy he got ACAS involved but the Civil Service have completely different rules which, as I understand it, are in the contracts of employment.

mahlerei, I'm glad Mum is settled and happy. Like vinteuil I lost both parents without warning, one when I was a teenager, so as a family we haven't had to consider what provision for care may have been necessary. As for my brothers and sister I guess we don't even want to think about what our positions may be in the future, I think we just assume we'll muddle through and never get old or infirm which obviously isn't the best thing to do but I really don't know how one plans for it.

Edit: Posted and seen crossed with Lat which obviously I haven't as yet read.

[Lateralthinking1]

salymap - Thank you for your kind message and I do wish you well. It is always nice to read your messages.

Anna - On ACAS, I rang them and they weren't interested. Didn't want to begin discussing it. Too close to Government I think. It had to be done within a certain time limit too, now passed, but none of us had the strength to face it. I was on medication and in counselling. It seems to me that only those who haven't been knocked utterly sideways can find it helpful, sadly.

[Mahlerei]

Lat

That's a shocking story, my commiserations. It seems there are few if any safety nest anymore.

Anna

Yes, situation is much improved, but I shudder to think how one would deal with these things on one's owen. There is so much bureaucracy and with all these departments under strain it's no wonder the system fails. That said, the hospitals fix people but once that's done the patient goes into a kind of limbo and that, I believe, is where older people are most vulnerable. Three short visits a day from overstretched care workers is simply not enough for someone who is confused and barely mobile. One day we came in to find mum surrounded by swirls of different coloured pills. She had no idea what she'd taken and when. That's when it became clear she couldn't live on her own any more; she was not happy but we had absolutely no choice.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

i have been a participant observer in my partners struggles with the provisions for the aged in her mother's and her aunt's demise all i can say is that you have been very fortunate in comparison Mahleri.... negligence, abuse, incompetence, error ...some of it just appalling were daily experiences during the critical period ...do not get old and ill in the East Midlands would be my advice except that is our future ... we are both of a mind to pop pills and a bottle of brandy rather than face the condit6ions in thhe care homes, and the sheer ineptitude of the PCTs and hospitals in this area ...

ref aunt aged 94 in a hospital in a city 25 miles away ... the staff member concerned spoke unintelligibly at all times [oh no one understands her other staff members laughed]

We are moving her to Y [hospital 35 miles awaay]
Why?
It is the specialist unit for stroke recovery
She has not had a stroke
She must have had a stroke, she has come here from the stroke ward
No she came from the stroke ward because she hadn't had stroke, have you read her notes?
No, she must have had one ...
Read her notes

goes away for thirty minutes and returns

We will have a meeting

two hours later

We are moving her to the Z hoispital [in our town a mile at most]

that was the least disturbing encounter at that hospital .... the aunt later passed away in a local 'care' home after breaking her arms falling out of bed trying to get to the bathroom, whatever staff on duty had ignored her call, after this she was put on the 'Liverpool Path' and ignored to death

the saga of Mother was much worse ....

[Anna]

Having thought a little more about this .... mahlerei's mum was lucky to own her home and also to have a loving family, ditto Calum's partner in caring for mum and aunt.

However, there are large numbers of single people without children, married ditto, widows/widowers, etc., or whose children may be estranged or have pre-deceased them or who may have siblings who are equally frail so thre is no family to rally round. What happens to these people (assuming they have no property to sell to fund costs) are they just put in a geriatric ward, even if they are not ill, just frail?

[Lateralthinking1]

Yes, the kinds of situations Calum mentions are precisely what I had hoped my parents would not have to experience. They don't want that either. However, they would rather have in their minds the idea that they will live forever or die without any prior lengthy illness. My being at home, rather than in work, has some hints of an unexpected early retirement for me and that in turn appears to be a symbol to them of "the end".

I will apply for further jobs but, you know, I've applied for 80 odd this year. I have taken a break from it because there is only so much rejection one can take in a short time. I also had to adapt during that time to counselling and then the end of counselling and then reducing medication. Arguably, even if I had been accepted, I wouldn't have handled it.

I have put in huge efforts to protect all of our positions but it isn't appreciated. Their general outlook is "Don't bother. Do you want anything from the shops?" I am wrong to have mentioned care homes and inheritance. I am wrong to talk about their ages, even when I emphasise that they could have another 10 to 15 years yet. I have become the wolf of death at their door to them and consequently now have my fundamental identity misrepresented. For them to feel strength, I have to be cast as the villain.

So it places me in the very sad and dismal position of having to keep my distance. They feel damaging - even dangerous - to me. My emotions have changed towards them because of what they reveal about their thoughts on me, however much they fulfill their sense of duty. And I never asked for any of it to happen. Ironically, nearly everyone in work felt that I was "too caring" and lacked "a harder edge".

[Mahlerei]

aka CdJ

Oh my word, that is just appalling. Anna is right, my mum is one of the lucky ones; there was an element of neglect at the hospital - which has just closed and set up in spiffing new premises - and we had to complain. Trouble is, the structures in the NHS are so vague it's difficult to know who to speak to. And yes, when yo do find someone it can be almost impossible to understand them.

The trust that did the botched op - the gas injected in mum's eye was four times the normal pressure, killing off the optic nerve - behaved very shabbily, sending a pro forma letter saying everything was done by the book. Trying to get the paperwork out of them took months, and when it finally arrived the independent expert could see from the notes that the operation had been bungled. That in itself was unforgivable, but the rapid decline and complications that followed were even worse.