As if there wasn't enough bad stuff going on

[eighthobstruction]

So we should be setting an example to other nations, eh? Like with wind-farms, where we ruin our country and our countryside by erecting windmills so that the Chinese needn't feel so bad about opening another fifty coal-fired power-stations? The trouble is that the view from the moral high ground is so spectacular that it's easy to miss all the nasties crawling up the slopes to bite your ankle. Martyrs are glorious - and gloriously dead. What is needed - in politics and maybe in life - is care, compromise, and common sense, not high-minded absolutes that serve only to create the lethal warm glow of self-satisfaction.

Now whether Liam Fox (or Dave) is the best man to lead us on this tight-rope walk is another issue entirely........

Not long ago we were making certain types of anti-civilian armnaments and torture and detention instruments ....and again the selling/reselling is banned from UK land-base....that's in the real world....I don't think we need this drum banging.

[ahinton]

Meanwhile, back in the real world, thousands of people depend upon this industry for their livelihoods. And also in the real world, rather than in Guardianland, defence and security are a fact of life. Are you suggesting that we put those thousands of people out of work just to satisfy your moral scruples? If we don't supply, someone else will.

Er. back in the real world, the very same government is in the process of implementing substantial cuts in other areas of the defence industry, including armed forces personnel - a fact that I had assumed not to have escaped the notice of many of those who live in that real world. Putting people out of work is never a pleasant task, of course but, given certain outcomes of previous British arms sales, one might have hoped that the government would have learnt its lesson by now. Of course someone else will supply arms if the British don't - but they'll supply them if the British do, too - and more of them, in all likelihood! What kind of logical argument is that? Anyway, perhaps Iran, with all its oil revenue, will best be able to afford to purchase British manufactured arms; they wouldn't ever use them against the vendors, though - oh, dear me, no, of course they wouldn't!

In the Pee world, I suppose that moral scruples are de trop rather than de rigeurwhen it's convenient; the post above certainly suggests that this is the case. Fortunately, the real world is an alternative place in which to live.

[eighthobstruction]

I'm afraid that mighty wall of Knowledge, Information, and Thought Processes has been Peed on AGAIN....[such an unfortunate name, previously little could be done with the formerly known as Ring Cyclist]

[eighthobstruction]

>>> 'wall of Knowledge, Information, and Thought Processes' <<<

....or is it a 'simple sword of truth and the trusty shield of British fair play'....

[eighthobstruction]

>>> " Please we say to you now, do not accept those things; epecially those things that happen everyday and seem quite natural. For in these times of planned confusion and deliberate violence; when blood runs and men are inhuman to men,nothing must be called natural. So thatnothing shall remain unchanged." <<< Brecht

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Bertolt-Brecht.jpg

[Serial_Apologist]

>>> " Please we say to you now, do not accept those things; epecially those things that happen everyday and seem quite natural. For in these times of planned confusion and deliberate violence; when blood runs and men are inhuman to men,nothing must be called natural. So thatnothing shall remain unchanged." <<< Brecht

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...olt-Brecht.jpg

[Serial_Apologist]

Sometimes ' in the real world' we have to choose between tyrants and ideologies. A good example is when we were allied with Stalin against Hitler. Which tyrant and ideology was worse is still a matter of some debate, though what is certain is that, interestingly, both claimed to be 'socialist' bravely waging war against the evil, foreign 'capitalist'.

Saying we shouldn't arm what we consider to be the 'lesser of two evils' would probably allow the greater evil to triumph by default.

Every decent person is against killing and wars. Unfortunately, we are always likely to have plenty of political tyrants to be forced to choose from as well.

We sometimes have to arm the police (many of whom are hardly angels) to fight the greater evil of violent crime so what's the basic difference?

Furthermore, the UK has a long and almost uniquely experienced military history, so it's hardly surprising that other countries look to us for advice and equipment and that we do business with those when we consider it appropriate?

Yes scotty, but remember in WW2 we and the Russians were under direct attack from the Nazis. And, unless my "knowledge" is faulty, we didn't actually supply the Soviet Union with arms.

[greenilex]

There is a very moving short film about the Docklands arms fair made by local schoolchildren some years ago.

https://www.caat.org.uk/issues/armsfairs/dsei

and scroll down the page for the short film.

[eighthobstruction]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A_B9lB8w5k

[Serial_Apologist]

There is a very moving short film about the Docklands arms fair made by local schoolchildren some years ago.

https://www.caat.org.uk/issues/armsfairs/dsei

and scroll down the page for the short film.

That's scotched any of their chances of a future job there, then!

[ahinton]

I'm afraid that mighty wall of Knowledge, Information, and Thought Processes has been Peed on AGAIN....[such an unfortunate name, previously little could be done with the formerly known as Ring Cyclist]

The not so hairy biker, perhaps?...

[Chris Newman]

I'm afraid that mighty wall of Knowledge, Information, and Thought Processes has been Peed on AGAIN....[such an unfortunate name, previously little could be done with the formerly known as Ring Cyclist]

I don't know, eighthobstruction. There was the rather entertaining saga detailing Ring Cyclist's problems with saddle rash. There were pages of replies filled with ribald innuendo and it was so funny. We all swore that the BBC moderators were tickled pink and pretended not to see it as they closed many far more inoccuous threads. He was a more mellow fellow then.

[Dave2002]

Teamsaint

Sweden, which most of us probably think of as a civilised country, has in the past (and maybe still) made tanks. Because of their ethical policies they are only permitted to sell/export them to friendly countries. A consequence of this, I'm told, is that the Hungarians seemingly have at least one tank for every street in the country :)

[eighthobstruction]

I don't know, eighthobstruction. There was the rather entertaining saga detailing Ring Cyclist's problems with saddle rash. There were pages of replies filled with ribald innuendo and it was so funny. We all swore that the BBC moderators were tickled pink and pretended not to see it as they closed many far more inoccuous threads. He was a more mellow fellow then.

....I seem to remember a thread ref piles as well....