Essential Classics??

[antongould]

But that isn't the question at all: the amount of pro and anti opinion. Even the BBC says it isn't a matter of numbers.

Contrary to popular opinion I am not a BBC spokesperson disguised as an accountant - I am an accountant and think numbers should impact the decision making process. Would you not like to know what the numbers are?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

i am reminded of that awful NuLab minister of education who dropped the languages requirement at GCSE because she wanted to reduce the truancy figures, Estelle Morris was it? same argument ... i do not think that truancy dropped but language capability did ....

[antongould]

The figures that interest me are, if you like, the truancy figures i.e. how many naughty boys like me are straying from the FoR3 line.

[french frank]

Contrary to popular opinion I am not a BBC spokesperson disguised as an accountant - I am an accountant and think numbers should impact the decision making process. Would you not like to know what the numbers are?

Well, I don't think I've ever accused you of being a BBC spokesperson; nor of, personally, having 'stolen' Radio 3 .

Meaningful numbers are, in my view, unascertainable. Who do you ask for their opinions? What is a 'Radio 3 listener'? Do you weight towards the 30-40 hours a week listener?

How far, near, approaching, distancing itself from, CFM Radio 3 is at the moment, it is clearly not where it was.

The matter of attention span is always interesting: if the human attention span is decreasing, the reasons and desirabilty should be questioned. Simply accepting that we all have a shorter attention span than we used to is not credible. We listen to a 2-hour play, a 3-hour opera, so why should people capable of concentrating for longer than five minutes not be catered for? and why should those with a shorter attention span not be trained to improve it?

Yes, there are many alternatives to listening to Radio 3. That will still be the case however much R3 changes. To see R3 chasing after the changing world, crying, "Wait for me, wait for me," is a bit pathetic. I would argue that Radio 3 should differ in approach and thinking, whereas it currently tries to ape the style and thinking of the marketplace: I don't believe that is a correct policy. Artists, writers and musicians live in the current world, are influenced by current events and politics, new ways of thinking, but they don't all become some form of popular entertainer. It's Radio 3's remit to 'modernise' by following the artistic and intellectual currents. It's fortunate in also having the historic record, which doesn't lose its value in the way popular culture does, as central to its content.

Crucially, why should new listeners be deprived of what we once enjoyed and benefited from, just because they don't know about it?


[As for the 'FoR3 line', it is what it is: there's no obligation for people here to toe the line. But it is based on a general principle (a 'grander design', if you like ), not on the detail of individual likes, dislikes, irritations &c]

[antongould]

Well, I don't think I've ever accused you of being a BBC spokesperson; nor of, personally, having 'stolen' Radio 3 .

Meaningful numbers are, in my view, unascertainable. Who do you ask for their opinions? What is a 'Radio 3 listener'? Do you weight towards the 30-40 hours a week listener?

How far, near, approaching, distancing itself from, CFM Radio 3 is at the moment, it is clearly not where it was.

The matter of attention span is always interesting: if the human attention span is decreasing, the reasons and desirabilty should be questioned. Simply accepting that we all have a shorter attention span than we used to is not credible. We listen to a 2-hour play, a 3-hour opera, so why should people capable of concentrating for longer than five minutes not be catered for? and why should those with a shorter attention span not be trained to improve it?

Yes, there are many alternatives to listening to Radio 3. That will still be the case however much R3 changes. To see R3 chasing after the changing world, crying, "Wait for me, wait for me," is a bit pathetic. I would argue that Radio 3 should differ in approach and thinking, whereas it currently tries to ape the style and thinking of the marketplace: I don't believe that is a correct policy. Artists, writers and musicians live in the current world, are influenced by current events and politics, new ways of thinking, but they don't all become some form of popular entertainer. It's Radio 3's remit to 'modernise' by following the artistic and intellectual currents. It's fortunate in also having the historic record, which doesn't lose its value in the way popular culture does, as central to its content.

Crucially, why should new listeners be deprived of what we once enjoyed and benefited from, just because they don't know about it?

Well perhaps not stolen Radio 3 but I've somehow got it and am I, seemingly gloating - I quote/copy.....

"I have no choice for music but Radio 3 but there's nothing now that has enough depth to tempt me. If I just want a bit of music, I might as well put on a CD of my own. The whole point about Radio 3 was that it was part of catering for all audiences. But it no longer does.

In the end, all you're saying is: 'Isn't it good that I've got your radio station now? Yippee!"


On tiny attention spans in my view it's a fact my own children and the vast majority, if not all, of the young people I work with have no attention span worthy of the name. A better mind than mine would have to explain why.

Hence I don't think the new generation will, in the main, want to enjoy what you once had if they are to come to a "classical music station" it will have to be different from the Third of the 70/80s and the getting there will not be a Road to Jericho experience for them.

But enough looking back to find your words I realise I sensibly withdrew from the debate as I was becoming Groundhog Twerp - I shall now do so again although probably not for good!

[french frank]

I am hoist with my own petard! But, yes, factually you are defending a style of broadcasting that appeals to you, whereas I have been dispossessed after a mere 20 years of musical education.

I wonder if any 'young people' (age?) therefore read anymore? How can anyone read a book if they have no attention span? How can students concentrate on a lecture if they have no attention span, as you suggest? My suspicion is (and was my experience as a teacher) that they are capable of a lot more than is generally required of them. But they herd, and that is probably an even greater bar to their venturing beyond what their peers do. Until they are at least ... 42 ...

[antongould]

It's weird my daughters can and did pay (long and hard) attention at University and got very good degrees but outside the world of academia - no and it shames me to say - is it my fault? - no they don't read books unless they are cinema/TV tie ins - Natasha is currently reading and loving Tinker Tailor. It is very, very, very sad. When I was her age I looked forward to reading endless novels etc. and even getting "into" that Third Programme thing!

[doversoul1]

antongould

On tiny attention spans in my view it's a fact my own children and the vast majority, if not all, of the young people I work with have no attention span worthy of the name. A better mind than mine would have to explain why.

Hence I don't think the new generation will, in the main, want to enjoy what you once had if they are to come to a "classical music station" it will have to be different from the Third of the 70/80s and the getting there will not be a Road to Jericho experience for them.

There are all sorts of forms of media that cater for those ‘vast majority’ whose attention span is tiny but Radio3 is (almost) the only one that can and should cater for those few who do have long attention spans. That is the whole point of Radio3.

[french frank]

Hence I don't think the new generation will, in the main, want to enjoy what you once had

But we come back to that old point: the new generation never did "in the main" want to enjoy Radio 3. What is 'new' is that the BBC thinks they ought to.

[Flosshilde]

I wonder if any 'young people' (age?) therefore read anymore? How can anyone read a book if they have no attention span?

Graphic novels - also known as comic books with pretensions, or films in print. Anything that requires an effort of imagination is too difficult - hence reading books after seeing the film/TV series - the 'mental pictures' are ready made.

[antongould]

But we come back to that old point: the new generation never did "in the main" want to enjoy Radio 3. What is 'new' is that the BBC thinks they ought to.

I think my generation contained a fair number of people, myself included who did - I don't see it now................but enough I am silent!

[french frank]

I think my generation contained a fair number of people, myself included who did - I don't see it now................but enough I am silent!

I expect it depended on the group you went around with.

I didn't listen, didn't know anyone who did, was barely even aware the station existed so wouldn't have known where to find it ; didn't go to concerts, didn't know anyone who did &c &c. Typical young person - but I got there eventually ...

[antongould]

hey I was at Lanchester Polytechnic Coventry not New College Oxford......................

[french frank]

hey I was at Lanchester Polytechnic Coventry not New College Oxford......................

But clearly more cultured than the people I knocked around with.

Radio 3 has never attracted a majority of any age group (or possibly of any group other than those who already had an interest in classical music). Why should the BBC suddenly think this is important, I wonder?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

.....this little piggie went to market .....

it occurred to me this morning that Squealer was dead menacing on that feedback prog in the manner of his utterances to the host ... pondering this i recalled that he has a b mus yet is surrounded by Oxbridge in the ranks of the most equal porkers .... is there a certain unease ... a defensiveness about strategic thinking, a sense of not quite being 'in' .... behind the 'populist' approach and the strategic volaitility

... interesting that he has dropped all the analytic programmes and pushed the personality approach ... nowt abstract or learned for squealer eh ... cola culture eh ... classic recipe for the bully ... ambitious ambivalent insecure .... he is just the wrong person for the kind of radio 3 we want .... persuasion and influence is not a viable approach, he has to go as a condition for desired change ..