Trouble at t'Proms

[doversoul1]

Mr GG

If I wrote to the paper and said I was simply a "musician" that could mean that I sat in my room playing my guitar every evening
if i was commenting on something connected to orchestral music and stated that I was working for the LSO, OROH, BBCSO and Philharmonia then it has greater weight.

Yes, if it is on the subject of music. As for political matters, unless each orchestra is officially or publicly associated with particular political ideas, it doesn’t give your political opinions any weight.


John (welcome from me, too)

giving details of their professional standing

Musicians are not professionals in Israeli politics and their professional standing as musicians provides no credentials for their opinions on the subject . This does not by any means that they should not express their opinions but their opinions are personal opinions, as they are not employed by the LPO for their knowledge in the politics.

No one would assume that each signatory to that letter was speaking on behalf of her or his institution

.

I don’t think this is something you can or should assume in the mass media. I think when academics write to the media with the name of the university, they are confident that they have enough support in one way or another. I expect there are a lot of academics who would like to do the same but won’t.

It shouldn't be possible to tell people they can't do something after the event because what they have done is inconvenient.

This is a good point but I still think the musicians were naive, therefore the LPO’s reaction is disproportionate rather than wrong.

[ed] Yes, the motivation behind the LPO's action is an interesting question but I still think that is a separate issue from individuals using the organisations name.

[aeolium]

As for political matters, unless each orchestra is officially or publicly associated with particular political ideas, it doesn’t give your political opinions any weight.

But surely the point of mentioning an orchestra's name is that it shows that the writer is a professional violinist working in a major orchestra, not just someone in a scratch or amateur orchestra, and therefore aware of the impact of boycotts or disruption of an orchestral concert (but still writing in support of this one).

Musicians are not professionals in Israeli politics and their professional standing as musicians provides no credentials for their opinions on the subject .

I am not a professional in Israeli politics but I could just have easily have written to a newspaper on this matter. They have a right as individuals to express their opinion. The relevance of their professional standing as musicians I have mentioned - they don't need to have special credentials for their opinions on this subject. They are also clearly making the statement as musicians that 'music and politics do mix'.

I don’t think this is something you can or should assume in the mass media. I think when academics write to the media with the name of the university, they are confident that they have enough support in one way or another. I expect there are a lot of academics who would like to do the same but won’t.

But plenty of academics have already written to the papers about this matter, generally mentioning their academic institution. Recently there was a letter to the Guardian in support of the suspended musicians, signed by a lot of people including academics such as Erik Levi, music professor at Royal Holloway. I think there would be an uproar if any action was taken against any of these letter-writers. It is also noticeable that no action has been taken against the two musicians of the OAE who signed the original letter.

This is a good point but I still think the musicians were naive, therefore the LPO’s reaction is disproportionate rather than wrong.

In law, the LPO must be clear that what the suspended musicians did was in breach of their contract or brought the LPO into disrepute. I don't know about the contractual details but I think it would be hard to prove the latter. IIRC, the LPO executives admitted in their letter to the IPO that the musicians were expressing their personal opinions and not those of the LPO.

[doversoul1]

aeolium
(I shan’t quote your post on each point but I hope it will be clear enough)

1. As many posters have said I’d have thought ‘violinist’ or ‘violinist working in a major orchestra’ would have been enough as most others in the list have done.

2. Of course you could have written to a newspaper but would you have mentioned the name of your employer (not the job-title or profession)even if you believe that all organisations should be or are political?

3. As I said, I am sure plenty more academics don’t write to the newspapers although they probably would like to. Yes, I see the OAE is mentioned. I cannot comment on the matter but you can’t tell. Perhaps they can’t afford to lose these musicians. Same as some academics whose positions are safe (I am not saying this is the case here).

4. Musicians were expressing their personal opinions and not those of the LPO. This is the whole point of the matter: so why did the musicians use the name of the LPO (back to the point 1&2)?

[MrGongGong]

aeolium


4. Musicians were expressing their personal opinions and not those of the LPO. This is the whole point of the matter: so why did the musicians use the name of the LPO (back to the point 2)?

because that's who they play for !
it seems that its OK for the LPO to make a film in support of Dutch musicians (quite right IMV) but not OK for their musicians to express other opinions

maybe we should just ask Saint Daniel ?

[Tony Halstead]

Quoting MrGongGong:
"maybe we should just ask Saint Daniel ?"

Well, we could always ask his agent whether DB would care to comment or opine, couldn't we?
I believe this agency to be:
ICM Agency N.Y.
825 8th Ave
26th Floor
New York, NY 10019.
USA

The same web page with this information gives DB's e-mail as
danielbarenboim(at)hotmail.com


I somehow think it wil be a case of 'no comment'.

[Ariosto]

I e mailed Timothy Walker suggesting that, in order to be consistent, he should suspend Vladimir Jurowski - as yet I've had no reply.

That would be a plus on a purely musical level, too!!

[John Skelton]

John (welcome from me, too)


Musicians are not professionals in Israeli politics and their professional standing as musicians provides no credentials for their opinions on the subject . This does not by any means that they should not express their opinions but their opinions are personal opinions, as they are not employed by the LPO for their knowledge in the politics.

Thanks for the welcome, doversoul :). It situates them in terms of the debate. & in terms of the debate they might well, as musicians who play (or did play now, at least for the time being) in a world famous symphony orchestra, have a different perspective from someone who does something else.

As for "professionals in Israeli politics" I'm afraid I completely disagree. We'll have even less democracy / accountability than we have at present if such issues are to be kept for the "experts" - many of whom are often presented as such without anything like adequate explanation of their "credentials" & background. For instance, not many who insist on the separation of art / politics when discussing Israel / Palestine mention this http://www.haaretz.com/misc/article-...gPath=2.169%2C.

I think when academics write to the media with the name of the university, they are confident that they have enough support in one way or another.

Even were that to be the case (why do you think that's true, by the way?) I don't think it's relevant. Being confident a fair number of your colleagues agree with you isn't the same as getting institutional approval / agreement. The point about the LPO being 'self-governing' doesn't affect that (or shouldn't). It self-governs in ways that don't imply or require a consensus where matters of conscience are involved. If that's not the case, then it's a mob not an organisation.

(Incidentally: the day after the suspension was announced the player's biographies were removed from the LPO's website. Like a whited out photograph. The traces of which could still be found by Google).

[doversoul1]

Mr GG

because that's who they play for !

And what’s that got to with their political opinions? (I’ve already said about this point)

I don’t know if the making of the film was consulted with the orchestra or the management’s own decision but the LPO is stating its opinion in its own name. If any members of the orchestra had expressed their concerns afterwards that they had not been consulted and that this was not their opinion, and then if they had been reprimanded, that would have been a different matter.

[John Skelton]

I don’t know if the making of the film was consulted with the orchestra or the management’s own decision but the LPO is stating its opinion in its own name. If any members of the orchestra had expressed their concerns afterwards that they had not been consulted and that this was not their opinion, and then if they had been reprimanded, that would have been a different matter.

""The company has no wish to end the careers of four talented musicians ... but for the LPO, music and politics do not mix." T. Walker, LPO (CEO).

[french frank]

it seems that its OK for the LPO to make a film in support of Dutch musicians (quite right IMV) but not OK for their musicians to express other opinions

But there is no evidence that the LPO does not allow their musicians to express opinions. They just aren't expected to put LPO after their names.

One thing, since I have said the LPO should be clearer about exactly why they thought it appropriate to take such punitive action, what was the motive of the signatories in writing the Independent letter? Did they really think that the BBC would pull the concert two days before it was due to take place (and four and a half months after it was announced)? So, in more exact terms, what was the point of writing the letter in that form?

[MrGongGong]

""The company has no wish to end the careers of four talented musicians ... but for the LPO, music and politics do not mix." T. Walker, LPO (CEO).

So i guess that means no Shostakovitch for them then
regardless of ones 'political' views this complete lack of understanding of musical history is more than a little surprising
if an undergraduate had written that music has nothing to do with politics then they would rightly be taken to task

I guess the LPO would have no problem then with a set of variations on the "Horst Wessel Lied" after all its only music and has NOTHING to do with politics

[John Skelton]

what was the motive of the signatories in writing the Independent letter? Did they really think that the BBC would pull the concert two days before it was due to take place (and four and a half months after it was announced)? So, in more exact terms, what was the point of writing the letter in that form?

There was never any chance of the BBC pulling the concert, though. That's not a reason to keep silent; appealing to them to rescind the invitation close to the concert brought the subject up as a matter of urgency & might have persuaded some people planning to attend the concert to not do so. If the suggestion is the four signatories supported the disruption of the concert that's just innuendo. Something Norman Lebrecht was happy to use in this context.

[doversoul1]

John
(This won’t do. I’ve got get on with things )

I see your point about a different perspective but I somehow doubt that that was the reason those musicians used the LPO’s name for this letter. But lets’ not go into that direction as we’ll never know the truth. My point is that you cannot be too careful about using a name of an organisation when you are publicly stating your opinions, especially on something controversial.

And again, I don’t disagree with your disagreeing with me. We should all discuss the matter openly and as often as possible but again, I’d say, do it in your own name unless there is a very good reason for referring to an organisation, and can explain why you are using its name. Mass media is a dodgy thing to say the least.

As for academics, what I meant by safe is more like ‘they know the university can’t afford to lose them for various reasons’ and not so much about the matter of principle.

Having said all this, I do think that the LPO’s reaction was/is appalling.

[ed]

""The company has no wish to end the careers of four talented musicians ... but for the LPO, music and politics do not mix." T. Walker, LPO (CEO).

Ah well. That’s their opinion expressed in their own name (I assume). Then it’s up to us to decide what to think about the orchestra.

[John Skelton]

So i guess that means no Shostakovitch for them then
regardless of ones 'political' views this complete lack of understanding of musical history is more than a little surprising
if an undergraduate had written that music has nothing to do with politics then they would rightly be taken to task

I guess the LPO would have no problem then with a set of variations on the "Horst Wessel Lied" after all its only music and has NOTHING to do with politics

Quite. The first concert of the LPOs new season included the political radical Bernd Alois Zimmerman's "Stille und Umkehr"; & later they have a Prokofiev series (whose political 'disengagement' wasn't exactly a simple affair). Still - great sounds LPO!

[french frank]

""The company has no wish to end the careers of four talented musicians ... but for the LPO, music and politics do not mix." T. Walker, LPO (CEO).

Yes. Anyone can see that that will be a focus of obvious disagreement. But at least two of the musicians (to my knowledge) have played and recorded with other major orchestras. Saying they don't get any work with the LPO for nine months (and I repeat that I don't think that was at all a justifiable response by the LPO) doesn't put them out of work for that length of time.

Whether - as you believe - the action was morally wrong would need a bit more information to support (but whether 51% certainty or 100% is needed on that lies with the individual: I tend to feel there's never enough evidence to form any conclusion on anything ).