Trouble at t'Proms

[scottycelt]

That does remind of of "Some of my best friends are gay/black/Jewish"

Or, in Ariosto's case, conductors ... ?

[Ariosto]

Or, in Ariosto's case, conductors ... ?

No, I've never admitted that any conductor is a friend. (In truth I've had one or two friends as conductors and can still count on at least two now. But I do draw the line at playing in their concerts ...)

[Mr Pee]

...is an orchestral interlude from Rimsky's opera "The Tale Of Czar Saltan" (1900). The genre of the "Russian Fantasy Opera" come into existence after the assassination of Tsar Alexander II (by alleged "foreign anarchists" who were never caught or identified). His son and successor, Alexander III introduced a fierce backlash against all foreign influences and trends in any branch of the arts - a Censorship Committee reviewed every book, play, painting, opera, sculpture or ballet for the slightest hints of antipatriotic tendencies. The obligation to produce tub-thumping patriotic works was side-stepped by writing "fantasy" pieces of lightweight character... such as "The Tale Of Czar Saltan", "The Nutcracker", and so forth.

Rimsky-Korsakov had originally been a member of "The Five" (aka "The Mighty Handful") - a group of composers with a heavily nationlistic agenda. This brought them into intense disagreement with Tchaikovsky, whom they accused of failing to display an appropriate level of patriotism in his works. They even mounted whispering campaigns against Tchaikovsky, and may have informed on him to the Court Of Star Chamber - an illegal "Masonic" court with no true jurisdiction, consisting of extreme rightwing noblemen and military officers. All of the Five later fell under the political influence of Belyayev - a powerful man of intense xenophobic views, who arranged financial support for music which met his political criteria. In 1905 Rimsky (then a Professor at the Conservatory) was asked to lead a committee to put-down student demonstrations of a political nature. Rimsky agreed, and 100+ students were expelled. Rimsky himself was subsequently removed from his post for his mishandling of the incident. Riots attended the premieres of his operas, and further works by Rimsky came under a Police Ban to avoid a breach of the peace. He lost all his Imperial posts, and by way of revenge wrote "The Golden Cockerel" - a thinly-disguised lampoon of a Russian Royal Court presided over by a tyrannical Tsar. The work never made it to the stage, as censors instantly banned it - it was only given after his death.

When "The Tale Of Tsar Saltan" was premiered in Kiev in 1911 the Prime-Minister, Stolypin, sat in the Royal Box. There he was assassinated by a one of the Royal Bodyguards, Mordechai Bogrov. He shot Stolypin in the chest and arm - Stolypin died of his injuries two days later. Bogrov was arrested and hanged. Bogrov was a jew. It never became clear whether he had acted as a leftist opposed to the pogroms against the jews (in which Stolypin had played a formidable role) or as an ultra-rightist opposed to Stolypin's policies on land reform. His trial was remarkable for a passionate speech against the death penalty by Stolypin's widow.

Talk about an open goal

And when you listen to The Bumblebee do you really think that makes a blind bit of difference? Does the music in any way reflect all that waffle? Or is it completely irrelevant to the listening experience? In the time it took me to read all the above I could have listened to the piece several times. And it would be no different for the knowledge. So therefore the "sonic event" (I've always used the term "performance", but there you go, I suppose I'm old fashioned ) is not in any way reflective of its context.

Thank you for answering to say you are not answering.

[BetweenTheStaves]

You are wasting your breath, Mr Pee. I know and agree 100% with what you are saying. The phrase 'None so blind .....' comes to mind.

[Bryn]

The phrase 'None so blind .....' comes to mind.

Re.the pair of you. Still, who was is who commented that "right wing intellectual" was a contradiction in terms?

[PJPJ]

No you have not misread. I do think the creation of Israel was a mistake.

Many thanks for your reply - did you miss the question following, or did you choose not to answer?

[Colonel Danby]

I'm in a sort of quandry about the whole Israeli-Palestinian question, and there seem to be no easy answers: on the one hand the Jewish people have right to their own state, but so do the Arabs. I'm all in favour of peaceful protest outside the Royal Albert Hall by both sides, but there should have been enough security on the door to prevent pro-arab disruption during the concert itself. If you think that that the Israeli PO is nothing more than the mouthpiece of the government in Tel Aviv, then just don't bother turning up for the show. Free speech is all very well, but stupid chants in the middle of a concert are not the way forward.

It doesn't seem 10 years since 9/11: the Last Night 2001 was just four days after the bombing of the World Trade Centre, one or two soloists couldn't make it across the pond because all the planes were grounded, and the tension in the Hall was febrile, not to say quite explosive, with shouts of dubious nature ringing around: one friend in the arena tried to intervene by shouting "This is not a political rally" but her call fell on largely deaf ears. And of course I'd been chosen to garland the bust of Sir Henry Wood too, which made for a extraordinary night's proceedings. What I'm trying to say is that music will conquer everything and should not be used for cheap headline grabbing purposes.

[Ariosto]

Many thanks for your reply - did you miss the question following, or did you choose not to answer?

I must have missed it but have to go for my brain op now as they have just cleaned the kitchen knives.

[johnb]

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting what is being said but it appears that many people have expressed the view that they are totally supportive of people's right to demonstrate for causes they believe in ... as long as the demonstration causes absolutely no inconvenience to anybody and can be totally ignored.

I somehow think that misses the point.

As it happened, the RAH demonstration merely caused minor interruptions in the proceedings - hardly something to get so hot under the collar about. Not only was the inconvenience very slight but those in the hall will no doubt delight in elaborating their tale at dinner parties and to friends and colleagues for months to come.

It was R3's decision to pull the broadcast, which is a pity. (The behaviour of the presenter in the hall was puzzling. It was almost as though he/she was immobilised, like a rabbit caught in the headlights. Having said that, he/she was probably operating under the producer's instructions or perhaps it was difficult to communicate with the sound engineers in the outside broadcast van.)

[Lateralthinking1]

To respond to that point, and to come up with an entirely fresh point, I don't like any form of music being disrespected. The Who used to smash their instruments on stage. I hated it and would feel more enraged about it than something like the students storming Tory HQ. I realise that this is an emotional rather than a rational argument and others might use logic to pour scorn on it. But it wouldn't really touch me, or convince me, on that level, because music to me is my religion. All of the other separate points I have made still apply in a rational/emotional sense. This though is sort of above all those or at least in a different realm.

[MrGongGong]

because music to me is my religion. .

as it is for many of us
and many of us are outraged at the way in which it is sometimes used by evil people to try and make their actions acceptable by claiming it as part of a "civilised" culture. The Israeli government claims all Jewish music as its own and conflates any opposition to its actions as anti semitic. This is very similar to what Suharto did in Indonesia , which for me was a real dilemma as I had been transfixed and moved to study Gamelan after first encountering it (much as happened to Debussy and Britten !) but we need to stand against injustice wherever it comes from

[Lateralthinking1]

Iran bans virtually all music. Should there be a protest to stop the Irani National Orchestra from performing if it is ever permitted to play here on the basis of Iran's policy on music?

[ahinton]

Iran bans virtually all music. Should there be a protest to stop the Irani National Orchestra from performing if it is ever permitted to play here on the basis of Iran's policy on music?

No. It should become the butt of jokes, even though there's absolutely nothing funny about this stance, to the extent that an Iranian orchestra that plays what's officially condemned can surely be little better than some kind of laughing stock in the way that can never be ascribed to IPO.

The situation with Western music in Iran since the 1979 revolution has gone around in circles, sometimes subject to total vilification to the extent of burning Western instruments and music libraries and at other times tolerated with blind eyes turned to it; there's nothing upon which anyone could reasonably expeect to depend in terms of government policy towards Western music in Iran as matters currently stand.

[Lateralthinking1]

ahinton - Thank you for your thoughtful reply which I appreciate. My thought was that the choice of music played by the Irani National Orchestra in London would by necessity be that sanctioned by the Iranian Government. To my knowledge, it has never banned every kind of music so it wouldn't actually be condemned. Instead it would be exceedingly narrow, reflecting the clampdown on most musicians and music in that country.

[Al R Gando]

And when you listen to The Bumblebee do you really think that makes a blind bit of difference? Does the music in any way reflect all that waffle?

It's why Russian operas prior to Alexander II's assassination are about social issues and young men shooting each other over love affairs (viz Evgeny Onegin, 1879)... but Russian operas just a few years later are about.... bumblebees!