Trouble at t'Proms

[makropulos]

Along with the London Haydn Quartet's double CD of the Op. 20 set, and the Bartok solo string concertos (Ehnes), the live recording of Mahler's 6th (IPO, Dorati, 27 October 1963) arrived in the post today. I will not be playing it. Well, not until after the current Matinee Prom, anyway. Yes the IPO is tied up with the Israeli state and is used to entertain its conscript armed forces. I fully support the right of those who protested against it to make their protest, but I will not be boycotting recordings of the work of the IPO.

Coincidentally, that Dorati Mahler 6, along with Monteux doing Beethoven 4/Enigma and Paray's Schumann 2 and 3 - all live with the IPO from the 1960s - arrived here yesterday. So did Svetlanov's recording of Prokofiev's "Zdravitsa". So did the incidental music for "Il Mercante di Venezia" by Victor de Sabata, first performed in fascist Italy (at the Venice Biennale in 1934). And so did a recording of the Haas edition of Bruckner 8 (which, as you know, was originally dedicated to Hitler). Oh, and Henry Merckel playing music by Hubeau and Delannoy receorded in Occupied Paris in 1941/2.

If I were to take some sort of stand against the politically unwelcome aspects of that lot, it would be pretty quiet around here. And no, I won't be boycotting IPO recordings made half a century ago either.

I support the right of those protesting to do so, but I don't support the way they chose to exercise that right.

[makropulos]

I prefer to not work for any conductors these days, for no other reason than I don't like orchestral playing. I would have in the past still worked with the guys you mention, after all they have to earn an honest (?) crust. Maybe they are not supporters of the government, but allow the orchestra to have the benefit of the doubt. I think your points are a bit simplistic. And yes, I have worked with Jewish musicians who are anti-Israel, so it's not that "Big of Me" as you so sarcastically put it..

Your point about an honest crust is a very fair one - but doesn't that apply even more to the permanent members of the orchestra than to its guest conductors?

By "a bit simplistic" I presume you mean "ones you don't agree with."

[Ariosto]

Quote - "friends who are not (at least vocal) supporters" - There appears to be some doubt there which in turn casts doubt on the word "friends", ie some sort of inference that these people must be in favour of Israeli government policy because they are Jewish if only in the doubter's mind.

The musicians are the children of Israel really, aren't they, and the Israeli Government is the current parent. One wonders why it is so often the case that those who shout loudest about the violation of rights pick on the comparatively more vulnerable to make their point rather than those who wield the true power.

Is it a case of cowardice or some sort of warped imitation/aspiration?

I can only make the comment that I consider that a very silly post and not worth answering.

[Lateralthinking1]

Thank you for answering to say you are not answering.

[Ariosto]

Your point about an honest crust is a very fair one - but doesn't that apply even more to the permanent members of the orchestra than to its guest conductors?

By "a bit simplistic" I presume you mean "ones you don't agree with."

I can't really speak for the IPO orchestral members - but I wouldn't (even if asked, which I would very much doubt) work for the IPO.

I think you would agree that people have to make up their own minds where they stand. I can only speak for myself.

[Anna]

I would of course (and still do) play with Jewish colleages and friends who are not (at least vocal) supporters of the Israeli regime.

That does remind of of "Some of my best friends are gay/black/Jewish" So, you'll be friends with them if they sit quiety in the corner? Why not attempt to discuss the Israeli Regime and perhaps alter their way of thinking?

[PJPJ]

I can't really speak for the IPO orchestral members - but I wouldn't (even if asked, which I would very much doubt) work for the IPO.

I think you would agree that people have to make up their own minds where they stand. I can only speak for myself.

Unless I've misread what you have written in the past, you think the creation of Israel a mistake. To put your posts in context, do you recognise Israel as a state?

(Malaysia doesn't recognise Israel as a state, for example.)

[Al R Gando]

That does remind of of "Some of my best friends are gay/black/Jewish"

It seems salutory to insert a reminder that the concert was performed by the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra, and not the "Jewish Philharmonic Orchestra". I wonder if there is a London Anglican Symphony Orchestra, or a Manchester Catholic Philharmonia, or a Belfast Protestant Sinfonia? I somehow doubt it.

[Ariosto]

That does remind of of "Some of my best friends are gay/black/Jewish" So, you'll be friends with them if they sit quiety in the corner?

That's a bit simplistic even for you is it not! I never said they were best friends. Many are/were just colleagues.

Why not attempt to discuss the Israeli Regime and perhaps alter their way of thinking?

What makes you think I haven't? In fact I've tried all of that. There is rarely if ever a response from the Israelis. Only if they are put on the spot publically. Quite a bit of cowardice going on there I think.

[Anna]

It seems salutory to insert a reminder that the concert was performed by the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra, and not the "Jewish Philharmonic Orchestra". I wonder if there is a London Anglican Symphony Orchestra, or a Manchester Catholic Philharmonia, or a Belfast Protestant Sinfonia? I somehow doubt it.

But Ariosto wasn't referring to the IPO but to his friends, who he said were Jewish

That's a bit simplistic even for you is it not! I never said they were best friends. Many are/were just colleagues.
What makes you think I haven't? In fact I've tried all of that. There is rarely if ever a response from the the Israelis. Only if they are put on the spot publically. Quite a bit of cowardice going on there I think.

Although now, in response to my enquiry as to why he doesn't try to change their veiwpoint they are suddenly Israelis Make up your mind Ariosto, are they citizens of Israel or just Jews that live in North London?

[Lateralthinking1]

They were Jewish friends. They are now Israeli colleagues.

[Al R Gando]

They were Jewish friends. They are now Israeli colleagues.

And before they emigrated they were the very same "Russian" players who were allegedly so beastly to Nathan Sharansky

Ranks and ranks of the best graduates of the Moscow and St Petersburg Conservatoires - no wonder the IPO is such a bloody good orchestra

[Ariosto]

Unless I've misread what you have written in the past, you think the creation of Israel a mistake. To put your posts in context, do you recognise Israel as a state?

(Malaysia doesn't recognise Israel as a state, for example.)

No you have not misread. I do think the creation of Israel was a mistake.

[Anna]

No you have not misread. I do think the creation of Israel was a mistake.

But having been created, it cannot be uncreated. Unless you go along with the outlandish suggestion which Lat mentioned ages ago (not his idea!) of transporting the whole of Israel to California. So, mistake or not, we have to live with it and accept it surely?

[Ariosto]

Although now, in response to my enquiry as to why he doesn't try to change their veiwpoint they are suddenly Israelis Make up your mind Ariosto, are they citizens of Israel or just Jews that live in North London?

Oh dear, this is becoming tedious! "They?" It's the Israelis I'm talking about. Not the Mohikans or the Icelanders!!
Some Israelis (like Mr Jonathan Hoffman) do live in North London and work for the Israeli Embassy!!
I think I'd better have a stiff drink, this is like trying to have a conversation with a conductor ...