Trouble at t'Proms

[Rolmill]

I think you make the mistake of thinking that "political" means consciously in support of a particular ideology.......rather than existing in a context outside of the sonic event.
I can't think of any music that is without cultural context so give me an example ?

"Political" may not mean conscious support, but it does imply a link with policy or government - it certainly doesn't mean "existing in a context outside the sonic event". IMV relatively few pieces are so steeped in their political background that they can meaningfully be described as political - which is why the same examples tend to be trotted out.

I still don't really understand what you are trying to say here, though? "Cultural context" seems to me to be one of those rather woolly, undefined phrases used in the main by academics but which doesn't strike a chord with many performers and listeners. Is it sometimes helpful to understand the compositional circumstances of a piece of music when performing or listening to it? Yes. Is it always essential to understand such circumstances? No (IMV), pieces such as a Mozart string quartet, or a Brahms part-song, or a Vivaldi violin concerto, or a Schubert piano impromptu can be performed excellently and heard appreciatively without such knowledge.

So I feel I am not really grasping your meaning, MrGG - can you expand on what you mean by "cultural context" with respect to music?

[Al R Gando]

Flight of the Bumblebee

...is an orchestral interlude from Rimsky's opera "The Tale Of Czar Saltan" (1900). The genre of the "Russian Fantasy Opera" come into existence after the assassination of Tsar Alexander II (by alleged "foreign anarchists" who were never caught or identified). His son and successor, Alexander III introduced a fierce backlash against all foreign influences and trends in any branch of the arts - a Censorship Committee reviewed every book, play, painting, opera, sculpture or ballet for the slightest hints of antipatriotic tendencies. The obligation to produce tub-thumping patriotic works was side-stepped by writing "fantasy" pieces of lightweight character... such as "The Tale Of Czar Saltan", "The Nutcracker", and so forth.

Rimsky-Korsakov had originally been a member of "The Five" (aka "The Mighty Handful") - a group of composers with a heavily nationlistic agenda. This brought them into intense disagreement with Tchaikovsky, whom they accused of failing to display an appropriate level of patriotism in his works. They even mounted whispering campaigns against Tchaikovsky, and may have informed on him to the Court Of Star Chamber - an illegal "Masonic" court with no true jurisdiction, consisting of extreme rightwing noblemen and military officers. All of the Five later fell under the political influence of Belyayev - a powerful man of intense xenophobic views, who arranged financial support for music which met his political criteria. In 1905 Rimsky (then a Professor at the Conservatory) was asked to lead a committee to put-down student demonstrations of a political nature. Rimsky agreed, and 100+ students were expelled. Rimsky himself was subsequently removed from his post for his mishandling of the incident. Riots attended the premieres of his operas, and further works by Rimsky came under a Police Ban to avoid a breach of the peace. He lost all his Imperial posts, and by way of revenge wrote "The Golden Cockerel" - a thinly-disguised lampoon of a Russian Royal Court presided over by a tyrannical Tsar. The work never made it to the stage, as censors instantly banned it - it was only given after his death.

When "The Tale Of Tsar Saltan" was premiered in Kiev in 1911 the Prime-Minister, Stolypin, sat in the Royal Box. There he was assassinated by a one of the Royal Bodyguards, Mordechai Bogrov. He shot Stolypin in the chest and arm - Stolypin died of his injuries two days later. Bogrov was arrested and hanged. Bogrov was a jew. It never became clear whether he had acted as a leftist opposed to the pogroms against the jews (in which Stolypin had played a formidable role) or as an ultra-rightist opposed to Stolypin's policies on land reform. His trial was remarkable for a passionate speech against the death penalty by Stolypin's widow.

Talk about an open goal

[Brompt1]

Having read through all the comments so far I realise that maybe I was naive in the spirit in which I went to the RAH on Thursday... I went to hear one of my favourite conductors play Bruch's violin concerto, the disc I would rush to save were I to be cast off on the famous Desert Island.

In response to a couple of earlier posts, I don't believe that music has to be about politics, and personally, looking at politics in general and politicians in particular, I would respectfully suggest that the less everything has to do with either, the better off we all would be. Music is beautiful. It provokes a human reaction that is pure emotion; surely this runs far deeper than mere politics?

I was in the Arena for Thursday's Prom, and in no particular order, my thoughts during the concert were as follows:

- I was embarrassed to see visiting musicians treated as badly as they were in my home town. I was equally shocked however when I heard a Prommer near me in the arena shout "kill" at the protesters.

- I had (and have) nothing but admiration for Zubin Mehta, Gil Shaham and the IPO for their professionalism and courage in ensuring that the show went on for the vast majority who had paid good money to hear beautiful music. I felt that appreciation for this, as much as the musicians' skill, was what the audience attempted to show in their enthusiastic and sustained applause. I do hope that it won't put them off coming back to perform in the UK, either together or separately.

- I am certainly no apologist for the Israeli Government's policies and want to point out that I support people's right to protest. However, the protesters had made their point when they disrupted the first piece (Webern). Surely this was enough? In doing their best to ruin all subsequent pieces they were acting selfishly (and counter productively). My feelings towards all parties in the middle East remain unchanged, whereas I now have utter contempt for the "organisations" involved in Thursday and their selfish tactics.

- From the Arena it was possible to see all those involved and they looked as British as I am. Before protesting against someone else's government, we should take a long look closer to home. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Just a thought (or four).

[scottycelt]

Rights trampled on? Inconvenienced, more like! Get a sense of proportion, man.

Yes, who cares about 'inconveniencing' others by deliberately disrupting their innocent enjoyment to make a purely political point which has absolutely nothing to do with music?

Any lack of proportion on my part may be more than matched by an apparent insensitive arrogance elsewhere, man ...

[handsomefortune]

mr gong gong (and others) my congratulations on your patience!

historically, politics and 'context' are often so tightly intertwined as to be inseparable imo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTc6LBtWEg0

and, from tony judt's obituary:

> he (judt) hoped to see in time "a natural distinction between people who happen to be Jews but are citizens of other countries; and people who are Israeli citizens and happen to be Jews". <

coincidentally, anyone listening to r4 news last night, (in anticipation of today's planned protest in israel, in relation to education fees, and other aspects of daily life, now v expensive) will have been cheered to hear the protest organiser interviewed on r4, reflect judt's precise hopes...of 'israelis' referring to, and including everyone .... (not only those of jewish faith). young israelies are apparently 'not interested in fighting each other', and currently stand united where education etc is concerned.

(btw thanks for the quote from the orchestra themselves anna).

whilst i feel sorry for both the orchestra, and 'rah' audience .... historically, the arts do not usually remain a separate artifice, when political realities remain unaddressed longterm.

arguably, the artifice of being a spectator in an audience relies, to an extent, on a 100% civilised world .... so, in this sense, it's hardly suprisng that larger events, and performances are sometimes hi jacked by those who feel unfairly treated.

> It's because there is a right of peaceful protest in this country. It seems that this was a peaceful protest in that the protesters arrived armed with nothing more dangerous than their own voices and a few flags and there are no reports of them resisting being ejected from the hall. Furthermore, none of them were arrested, so it seems unlikely they did anything illegal. This is, after all, a country where everything that is not illegal is legal rather than vice versa.

There would be no point in such a right if it could only be exercised with the permission of all those present.

I for one am thankful I live in a country where this sort of thing can happen as opposed to, say, North Korea or China. <

i am thankful too, and long may these freedoms last, vile consort!

[Anna]

One problem with the IPO and the Jerusalem Quartet which has been quoted as the reason for the heckling is Israel's illegal invasion and occupation and the fact that the IPO and JQ perform concerts for those Israeli troops who invaded

Well, taking that to it's logical conclusion .......... The invasion of and occupation of Afghanistan is illegal. Katherne Jenkins and James Blunt perform to the troops in that occupied country. Therefore, said KJ and JB should be heckled when they perform here as they are endorsing the illegal occupation ................

[Bryn]

Oh I can think of plenty of other reasons for heckling that pair, Anna. I gave up on Jimmy Edwards and Eric Sykes when they went to entertain members of the Rhodesian armed forces during the period of UDI. I would have applauded any protest action taken against them.

[aeolium]

Ariosto, msg 191

It was interesting to see the number of musicians who signed the letter protesting against the IPO's visit in the link provided by Bryn.

I don't believe that music has to be about politics, and personally, looking at politics in general and politicians in particular, I would respectfully suggest that the less everything has to do with either, the better off we all would be.

How can music be divorced from politics, which covers the organisation of societies and the relationship between peoples and states. Music cannot be divorced from its context, and especially the context in which it is performed.

Music is beautiful. It provokes a human reaction that is pure emotion; surely this runs far deeper than mere politics?

Why? Why is it 'far deeper' than the consideration of human suffering and the oppression of real people, which is the situation that prevails in Palestine? That is like the reaction of the theatre-goer who weeps at the death of Cordelia and then looks askance at homeless people in doorways on the way back home.

From the Arena it was possible to see all those involved and they looked as British as I am. Before protesting against someone else's government, we should take a long look closer to home. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

And why shouldn't they be British, at a London Prom? Is the conflict in the Middle East simply "a quarrel in a faraway country between people of whom we know nothing", in Chamberlain's infamous phrase? And it is quite likely that many of those protesting would also have protested against British government policy, especially the Iraq war.

What should people in glass houses do - just listen to music?

[Vile Consort]

Yes, who cares about 'inconveniencing' others by deliberately disrupting their innocent enjoyment to make a purely political point which has absolutely nothing to do with music?

Any lack of proportion on my part may be more than matched by an apparent insensitive arrogance elsewhere, man ...

Or by the arrogant insentitivity of failing to notice the blindingly obvious political connection.

[Ariosto]

Ariosto, msg 191

It was interesting to see the number of musicians who signed the letter protesting against the IPO's visit in the link provided by Bryn.



How can music be divorced from politics, which covers the organisation of societies and the relationship between peoples and states. Music cannot be divorced from its context, and especially the context in which it is performed.



Why? Why is it 'far deeper' than the consideration of human suffering and the oppression of real people, which is the situation that prevails in Palestine? That is like the reaction of the theatre-goer who weeps at the death of Cordelia and then looks askance at homeless people in doorways on the way back home.



And why shouldn't they be British, at a London Prom? Is the conflict in the Middle East simply "a quarrel in a faraway country between people of whom we know nothing", in Chamberlain's infamous phrase? And it is quite likely that many of those protesting would also have protested against British government policy, especially the Iraq war.

What should people in glass houses do - just listen to music?

Once again aeolium I would like to thank you for your extremely thoughtful, intelligent and wise post. No need for me to say I entirely agree.

[scottycelt]

Or by the arrogant insentitivity of failing to notice the blindingly obvious political connection.

There is about as much 'blindingly obvious political connection' in the case of the IPO and current Israeli Government policy as any the London Symphony Orchestra may have had regarding Boris Johnson's handling of the recent riots.

[makropulos]

@ariosto: "I would of course (and still do) play with Jewish colleagues and friends who are not (at least vocal) supporters of the Israeli regime."

Big of you.

I'm interested to know where - hypothetically - you'd draw the line. What about playing for conductors who have worked with the IPO? Does that amount to "support" - and if I've followed your line of reasoning, then you seem to consider the IPO to be - de facto - associated with the Israeli government (or "regime" as you call it).

(A few recent examples of these "supporters" would include Kurt Masur, Andras Schiff, Christoph von Dohnányi, Herbert Blomstedt, Gustavo Dudamel, Ilan Volkov, Manfred Honeck, Michael Tilson Thomas, Rafael Frühbeck de Burgos, Riccardo Muti, Valery Gergiev, Yuri Temirkanov.)

[Bryn]

@ariosto: "I would of course (and still do) play with Jewish colleagues and friends who are not (at least vocal) supporters of the Israeli regime."

Big of you.

I'm interested to know where - hypothetically - you'd draw the line. What about playing for conductors who have worked with the IPO? Does that amount to "support" - and if I've followed your line of reasoning, then you seem to consider the IPO to be - de facto - associated with the Israeli government (or "regime" as you call it).

(A few recent examples of these "supporters" would include Kurt Masur, Andras Schiff, Christoph von Dohnányi, Herbert Blomstedt, Gustavo Dudamel, Ilan Volkov, Manfred Honeck, Michael Tilson Thomas, Rafael Frühbeck de Burgos, Riccardo Muti, Valery Gergiev, Yuri Temirkanov.)

Along with the London Haydn Quartet's double CD of the Op. 20 set, and the Bartok solo string concertos (Ehnes), the live recording of Mahler's 6th (IPO, Dorati, 27 October 1963) arrived in the post today. I will not be playing it. Well, not until after the current Matinee Prom, anyway. Yes the IPO is tied up with the Israeli state and is used to entertain its conscript armed forces. I fully support the right of those who protested against it to make their protest, but I will not be boycotting recordings of the work of the IPO.

[Ariosto]

@ariosto: "I would of course (and still do) play with Jewish colleagues and friends who are not (at least vocal) supporters of the Israeli regime."

Big of you.

I'm interested to know where - hypothetically - you'd draw the line. What about playing for conductors who have worked with the IPO? Does that amount to "support" - and if I've followed your line of reasoning, then you seem to consider the IPO to be - de facto - associated with the Israeli government (or "regime" as you call it).

(A few recent examples of these "supporters" would include Kurt Masur, Andras Schiff, Christoph von Dohnányi, Herbert Blomstedt, Gustavo Dudamel, Ilan Volkov, Manfred Honeck, Michael Tilson Thomas, Rafael Frühbeck de Burgos, Riccardo Muti, Valery Gergiev, Yuri Temirkanov.)

I prefer to not work for any conductors these days, for no other reason than I don't like orchestral playing. I would have in the past still worked with the guys you mention, after all they have to earn an honest (?) crust. Maybe they are not supporters of the government, but allow the orchestra to have the benefit of the doubt. I think your points are a bit simplistic. And yes, I have worked with Jewish musicians who are anti-Israel, so it's not that "Big of Me" as you so sarcastically put it.

But when an orchestra tours to the UK for example as ambassadors of a certain government, they must risk demonstrations, however irksome they might find it. If I were in a UK orchestra touring in Iraq I would expect demos. (Not that I would be prepared to tour in Iraq as I'm against its illegal occupation).

[Lateralthinking1]

Quote - "friends who are not (at least vocal) supporters" - There appears to be some doubt there which in turn casts doubt on the word "friends", ie some sort of inference that these people must be in favour of Israeli government policy because they are Jewish if only in the doubter's mind.

The musicians are the children of Israel really, aren't they, and the Israeli Government is the current parent. One wonders why it is so often the case that those who shout loudest about the violation of rights pick on the comparatively more vulnerable to make their point rather than those who wield the true power.

Is it a case of cowardice or some sort of warped imitation/aspiration?