Trouble at t'Proms

[MrGongGong]

Next year's apolitical Proms Operas

Janacek: From The House Of The Dead
Beethoven: Fidelio
Puccini: Tosca

What, no Henze ?

[Al R Gando]

What, no Henze ?

I was thinking about operas which might actually get performed at the Proms ;) Der Junge Lord might be very instructional, of course :)

But how did I manage to omit Dialogues Of The Carmelites?

[MrGongGong]

or even Nabucco

(which has so many parallels to Star Trek its uncanny ! )
maybe with a late night gig at Imperial college by Skrewdriver to round things up ? (after all its only music )

[scottycelt]

It's because there is a right of peaceful protest in this country. It seems that this was a peaceful protest in that the protesters arrived armed with nothing more dangerous than their own voices and a few flags and there are no reports of them resisting being ejected from the hall. Furthermore, none of them were arrested, so it seems unlikely they did anything illegal. This is, after all, a country where everything that is not illegal is legal rather than vice versa.

There would be no point in such a right if it could only be exercised with the permission of all those present.

I for one am thankful I live in a country where this sort of thing can happen as opposed to, say, North Korea or China.

That's a huge assumption.

I'm no lawyer but I suspect the 'protesters' could have been charged under a number of civil order laws protecting the rghts of other people going about their lawful business, if that course of action were deemed particularly advisable. 'Deliberate disruption' is quite different from 'free demonstration'. The police, probably correctly, appear to have decided to take no action following this puerile rather than aggressive action.

The event itself was not a political rally it was a classical music concert, and the rights of those (surely the overwhelming majority) who merely wished to go and hear the music, were knowingly and deliberately trampled upon by the minority of disruptive, politically-motivated activists.

Everyone has 'rights', even classical music concert-goers!

[Anna]

From what I have read the RAH didn't want the Police to get involved and they would deal with it themselves.

You could, of course, ask where have been the similar disruptions of performances by Russian, Chinese, Turkish, Iranian or any number of other nations’ musicians?

[Mr Pee]

Dear mrP

Maybe if it was a piece of algorithmic music from the ICMC you might have a (slight) point !
but
this is the PROMS

Here's a programme of non-political music for next year

Shostakovitch 8th Quartet
Messiaen : Quartet for the end of time
Beethoven : Symphony #9
Cardew: The great learning
Tim Souster: The Music Room


political DOESN'T mean that its ABOUT promoting a particular branch of politics , left, right or whatever you still believe in ..........
a performance is in part a statement of belief ...... "THIS music has something to contribute to YOU in THIS room at THIS time"

even the most "abstract" music is intensely connected to its context

(though an all night performance of La Monte Young's Composition 1960 #7 would be a fine addition IMV)

You are now going to suggest ? that the last night is an entirely apolitical event and a celebration of "pure music"

No, of course not.

It's very easy to trot out lists of politically charged compositions, whether these associations have been foisted upon them, or were intended by the composer, and however dubious some might be. It's even easier to list pieces which have absolutely nothing to do with politics whatsoever, and the list would be a great deal longer.

If I could remind you, the phrase that I picked up on was

When one plays music, one is NEVER apolitical

Never- just when playing music? Whatever piece, in whatever context? That's clearly ludicrous. You must see that.

[Mr Pee]

From what I have read the RAH didn't want the Police to get involved and they would deal with it themselves.

You could, of course, ask where have been the similar disruptions of performances by Russian, Chinese, Turkish, Iranian or any number of other nations’ musicians?

No, there wouldn't. Because along with the Murdochs, Israel is currently the left's favourite whipping boy.

[Anna]

The recital by The Jerusalem Quartet had the plug pulled on it by Radio 3 because of heckling. The Quartet later issued a statement on their website

"As Israeli citizens, we were required to, and did, perform our national service when we were aged 18. As it happens, none of us was in a combat unit. We served our conscription as musicians playing for our fellow citizens. To identify our conscription, particularly since it was so long ago, with support for government policies is irrational. The demonstrators were ignorant of the fact that two of us are regular members of Daniel Barenboim's West-Eastern Divan Orchestra, composed of Israeli and Arab musicians. It is destructive of our attempts to foster Israel-Arab relations for us to be the subject of demonstrations of the kind we suffered yesterday"

"We no more represent the Government of Israel than the audience at the Wigmore Hall represented the Government of the United Kingdom."

[Bryn]

Thanks for posting that quote, Anna. It does rather call the background research done by the demonstrators on that occasion into question. However, in the case of the IPO, I think it worth linking to a rebuttal of Mehta's claims re. Palestinian musicians and music of the European classical tradition:

http://bethlehemblogger.wordpress.com/2011/09/02/time-to-face-the-music/

[MrGongGong]

No, of course not.

It's very easy to trot out lists of politically charged compositions, whether these associations have been foisted upon them, or were intended by the composer, and however dubious some might be. It's even easier to list pieces which have absolutely nothing to do with politics whatsoever, and the list would be a great deal longer.

If I could remind you, the phrase that I picked up on was

Never- just when playing music? Whatever piece, in whatever context? That's clearly ludicrous. You must see that.

I think you make the mistake of thinking that "political" means consciously in support of a particular ideology.......rather than existing in a context outside of the sonic event.
I can't think of any music that is without cultural context so give me an example ?

[Mr Pee]

I think you make the mistake of thinking that "political" means consciously in support of a particular ideology.......rather than existing in a context outside of the sonic event.

Politics and context are completely different concepts. Come along, Mr GG, make your mind up.

Just to remind you, since you seem to have forgotten the context:-

When one plays music, one is never apolitical

Apolitical, not a-cultural, or a-contextual.

It's no good changing the argument now, just because you've finally realised that you've been talking a load of codswallop.

[Ariosto]

All I would say is that as an ex-professional performing musician (who still performs occasionally) I would have accepted the right of the ant-Israeli Government protesters to disrupt my concert. Had it been down to me I would abandon the concert and repeat it a few hours later as a mark of respect for the Palestinians.

It has been my policy over some years to avoid any concert in support of, or in aid of, or in promotion of anything Israeli. That includes playing in such a concert. If I had agreed to play in a concert and then it was announced before the concert that the proceeds were going to support Israel (or the concert was just in support of Israel's policies) then I would have walked out, along I am sure with a few other colleagues.

I would of course (and still do) play with Jewish colleages and friends who are not (at least vocal) supporters of the Israeli regime.

People should not mix up the fact that one can be pro-Jewish as I am, but anti Israel.

And as far as Israel is concerned, I always considered that Jewish people have made a greater conribution to the world and society by integration into the whole world, and not in the need to have a Jewish State that was illegally obtained by terrorists and is suported by the far right, who provide enough weapons of mass destruction into the hands of the Israelis to cause the next worldwide holocaust.

[MrGongGong]

Politics and context are completely different concepts. Come along, Mr GG, make your mind up.

Just to remind you, since you seem to have forgotten the context:-



Apolitical, not a-cultural, or a-contextual.

It's no good changing the argument now, just because you've finally realised that you've been talking a load of codswallop.

I really think you are missing the point completely
to reiterate
music always exists in a context, cultural and political
why do you think they changed the name of the Bechstein Hall to Wigmore Hall ?

much as I am cynical about politics it seems clear to me that music always has this dimension
going back to the event that started this it was a clearly political event as much as Rostropovitch's playing of the Dvorak in 1968 was

music has (sadly !) been used by unpleasant regimes throughout history one needs to be aware of this.

So please do give me an example of a piece which has "nothing to do with politics whatsoever" .........????

[Mr Pee]

So please do give me an example of a piece which has "nothing to do with politics whatsoever" .......

Talk about an open goal.....

Mozart's Clarinet Quintet.
Tchaikovsky Nutcracker.
Delius On Hearing the first cuckoo.
Flight of the Bumblebee
Debussy La Mer
Schubert Octet
Humperdinck Hansel Und Gretel
Chopin Nocturnes.......

I could continue, but I have things to do today, and I fear I would be here until at least midnight.......

[Vile Consort]

That's a huge assumption.

(snip)

The event itself was not a political rally it was a classical music concert, and the rights of those (surely the overwhelming majority) who merely wished to go and hear the music, were knowingly and deliberately trampled upon by the minority of disruptive, politically-motivated activists.

Everyone has 'rights', even classical music concert-goers!

Rights trampled on? Inconvenienced, more like! Get a sense of proportion, man.