Trouble at t'Proms

[Lateralthinking1]

Hi Chris, yes I know, that is very fair. The anti-semitism word is used according to its more commonly understood meaning rather than its actual one. It is, I agree, a lazy description and I know that I used it earlier on. While I and others have dwelt on the religious angle, and I would do so without apology, I think this discussion has been helpful because it has clarified for me that it is also about artistic expression and the rights of the individual.

I'm not against protest. A protest outside would have been wholly acceptable. I am fully in favour of the music of protest too. And that latter point might be worth thinking about more. I wouldn't regard someone who is renowned for a political viewpoint, but whose repertoire would never suggest he held that view, to be a political singer. An artist who protests in art tends to be by definition unequivocal. Even in the "old days", when people had to be "careful", it was possible to tell the difference. Robeson springs to mind. And it isn't as if the IPO begins each concert with a rousing rendition of Hatikvah! That's it for now. Regards, Lat.

[BBMmk2]

Why oh why do we have to put up with people who are hell bent on desrupting a concert that ordinary people have come to see a top orchestra in action? I may be naive in this regard, but it's the music that we have come to see and the orchestra etc? People have the right to protest, outsede the venue, prefrably, not inside and spoil the audiences evening?

[Bert Coules]

I don't think anyone has raised the performance of Louise Fryer on R3?

Actually, I did, earlier in the discussion. I only caught part of the second half, just as her introductory announcement ended and the protest began. As first the shouting and then the counter-shouting continued and built, I waited for her to say something - anything, really - even if it was as basic as "Well, as you can hear, we have a disturbance in the hall..." But she said nothing. And the seconds ticked away, and it became a very strange bit of radio indeed. And then, bang, we were back with R3 con in Broadcasting House. A most peculiar few minutes.

[Vile Consort]

Why oh why do we have to put up with people who are hell bent on desrupting a concert that ordinary people have come to see a top orchestra in action? I may be naive in this regard, but it's the music that we have come to see and the orchestra etc? People have the right to protest, outsede the venue, prefrably, not inside and spoil the audiences evening?

It's because there is a right of peaceful protest in this country. It seems that this was a peaceful protest in that the protesters arrived armed with nothing more dangerous than their own voices and a few flags and there are no reports of them resisting being ejected from the hall. Furthermore, none of them were arrested, so it seems unlikely they did anything illegal. This is, after all, a country where everything that is not illegal is legal rather than vice versa.

There would be no point in such a right if it could only be exercised with the permission of all those present.

I for one am thankful I live in a country where this sort of thing can happen as opposed to, say, North Korea or China.

[BetweenTheStaves]

"Outside the concert hall a group of about 20 campaigners waved banners and sang songs in protest against the appearance of the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra (IPO).

Increased security measures had taken place including bag searches and a heightened police presence.

The Palestine Solidarity Campaign had urged people to boycott the concert and called on the BBC to cancel the event.

The pro-Palestinian group claimed that the IPO showed "complicity in whitewashing Israel's persistent violations of international law and human rights".

Interesting!

Why?

[BetweenTheStaves]

Art for art's ske can still be enriched by finding out about the composer, and the circumstances of his or her life. When one finds out about e.g. Wagner's views about jewish people, one can then query what it must be in his music that so attracts or repels one, or at least makes one feel ambivalent about it.

Why is pop music so unfulfilling to so many who have been introduced to and then prefer more challenging music? You have to understand the circumstances of its creation and its target audience to see why so much of it is so ephemeral and banal. No music exists in some vacuum.

That is absolute rubbish. I have listened to and enjoy a huge range of music and that is without learning about the composer. You might like to label music with mystic symbolism to support your own particular viewpoint but my approach of just listening to the music is just as valid.

[BetweenTheStaves]

The fact that you can give a "thumbs up" to that sentence says it all. We can now see precisely where your priorities lie, and clearly music is way down the list. I find it hard to believe that a contributor to these boards, supposedly a music-lover, should applaud musicians being barracked, heckled, and demoralised by a small minority of troublemakers. It makes me wonder what one earth you are doing contributing to these boards at all.

Well said.

[BetweenTheStaves]

It's because there is a right of peaceful protest in this country. It seems that this was a peaceful protest in that the protesters arrived armed with nothing more dangerous than their own voices and a few flags and there are no reports of them resisting being ejected from the hall. Furthermore, none of them were arrested, so it seems unlikely they did anything illegal. This is, after all, a country where everything that is not illegal is legal rather than vice versa.

There would be no point in such a right if it could only be exercised with the permission of all those present.

I for one am thankful I live in a country where this sort of thing can happen as opposed to, say, North Korea or China.

Well in that case please let us know what concert you might be going to next and we will arrange a very vocal demonstration in favour of free speech. They have a righy to protest outside. They DO NOT have a right to protest inside.

[Vile Consort]

[QUOTE=BetweenTheStaves;80243]Well in that case please let us know what concert you might be going to next and we will arrange a very vocal demonstration in favour of free speech. They have a righy to protest outside. They DO NOT have a right to protest inside.[/QUOTE

York Minster tomorrow evening I shall tip off the local paper.

But, my dear chap, I don't believe you have thought this through properly at all. It would be absurd for you to protest in favour of free speech there, as neither the Minster authorities not the performer have any connection (to the best of my knowledge) with a government or other institution that is against it. You see, if you start vociferously demanding something you already have, you will find your erstwhile friends start crossing the street when they see you coming.

So, unless it is your intention to draw our attention to Andrew Lumsden's brutal repression of free speech at Winchester Cathedral, I would change the nature of your protest. You might, for instance, protest against the use of the organ in churches, or in favour of disestablishment, or against the ordination of women.

[davehsug]

It was rather ironic that Sky arts 2 showed "perlman in Russia" tonight. He talked about how a previous planned tour 20 years before had been cancelled. Plus ca change as we say in Stoke!

[Mr Pee]

Well I've been at work this evening and have just caught up with the thread. There have been a lot of interesting posts since I last looked, from both sides. However, the one short phrase that I cannot leave until the morning is this, from Mr. Gong-Gong.

when one plays music one is never apolitical

What an extraordinary statement. I really struggle to comprehend the thought process behind such a vacuous piece of nonsense. I have played in many concerts over the years, and have never been aware of a political agenda behind, for example, my performance in the Schubert Octet, or that politically charged piece by Mozart, the Clarinet Quintet.

I find it infinitely depressing that some people seem to find a political slant in everything. Great music is better than that, and it is demeaned and cheapened by having external agendas thrust upon it.

[Sydney Grew]

I have played in many concerts over the years, and have never been aware of a political agenda behind, for example, my performance in the Schubert Octet, or that politically charged piece by Mozart, the Clarinet Quintet.

I find it infinitely depressing that some people seem to find a political slant in everything. Great music is better than that, and it is demeaned and cheapened by having external agendas thrust upon it.

Quite so! Art is brought into being and exists for Art's sake alone. The dragging in of the political is one of my (many) objections to the glorification of that frightful Russian plebe Shostankiwich or whatever his name is. Nothing to do with Art what.

[Al R Gando]

Quite so! Art is brought into being and exists for Art's sake alone. The dragging in of the political is one of my (many) objections to the glorification of that frightful Russian plebe Shostankiwich or whatever his name is. Nothing to do with Art what.

[MrGongGong]

Well I've been at work this evening and have just caught up with the thread. There have been a lot of interesting posts since I last looked, from both sides. However, the one short phrase that I cannot leave until the morning is this, from Mr. Gong-Gong.



What an extraordinary statement. I really struggle to comprehend the thought process behind such a vacuous piece of nonsense. I have played in many concerts over the years, and have never been aware of a political agenda behind, for example, my performance in the Schubert Octet, or that politically charged piece by Mozart, the Clarinet Quintet.

I find it infinitely depressing that some people seem to find a political slant in everything. Great music is better than that, and it is demeaned and cheapened by having external agendas thrust upon it.

Dear mrP

Maybe if it was a piece of algorithmic music from the ICMC you might have a (slight) point !
but
this is the PROMS

Here's a programme of non-political music for next year

Shostakovitch 8th Quartet
Messiaen : Quartet for the end of time
Beethoven : Symphony #9
Cardew: The great learning
Tim Souster: The Music Room


political DOESN'T mean that its ABOUT promoting a particular branch of politics , left, right or whatever you still believe in ..........
a performance is in part a statement of belief ...... "THIS music has something to contribute to YOU in THIS room at THIS time"

even the most "abstract" music is intensely connected to its context

(though an all night performance of La Monte Young's Composition 1960 #7 would be a fine addition IMV)

You are now going to suggest ? that the last night is an entirely apolitical event and a celebration of "pure music"

[Al R Gando]

Here's a programme of non-political music for next year

Next year's apolitical Proms Operas

Janacek: From The House Of The Dead
Beethoven: Fidelio
Puccini: Tosca